I’ve been wondering lately (and asking in some of our long chatty comment discussions) if it’s possible that this idea of ‘one perfect day,’ ‘your big day,’ you should look like a princess,’ blah blah blah are maybe all tied up with our concepts of being a wife.
Because the stuff about being a wife that gets drilled into our heads through our cultural noise (hello Oprah) is about how once you become a wife (and mother, since, well, obviously that’s next) ‘you let yourself go’ and ‘you put yourself last’ and ‘after you have kids it’s not about your dreams anymore, you won’t even care about your dreams!’* And if, at least partially, you believe all that…. then don’t you deserve to go out with a bang? Don’t you deserve a day of perfection, a day of everyone catering to you, a day of being a princess? Because if you really believe that your wedding day is the happiest day of your life, don’t you want to make it as grand as possible before you go into the long decline?
What do you think? Are these two lines of cultural chatter connected? Are they totally not? What am I missing? I could be very wrong, but I keep rolling this over in my head, so I wanted to throw it out there. Chat!
*It seems totally unfair to children to put the fact that you gave up your DREAMS for them on their backs. I mean, live your own dreams, show your kids that having a passion is possible, and let them figure out their own damn dreams.
VERY IMPORTANT CLARIFICATION: Didn’t think I needed to say this, but maybe I do. I don’t believe in any of these things (including the kids naturally follow marriage bit), and I don’t expect that most of you do. Nor do I expect that they always or often happen – my mom didn’t live this life, and I don’t plan to! But – these sets of beliefs about marriage and wife-hood are part of our cultural landscape, like it or not. They are, thank god, not the *only* way our culture looks at these roles, but they are two of the prevalent ways. Ok, that’s all, carry on!
I think you really hit on something here. It's like a large public look-at-me, remember-me-like-this spectacle! That part about dreams really spoke to me. My mom gave up hers to raise my brothers and I and it is not healthy for the kids or the moms when that happens.
November 24, 2009 4:40 am
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Hm, that's sad. just the other day I told my fiancee that I don't want to spend EUR 1.000,- on a dress that I wear once because it's just ONE day and the whole thing is not about that day but about the forty years afterwards.
But the way you put it, suddenly the wedding-day sounds like a funeral. Ouch.
I have no intention of giving up my dream for my future kids and/or my future husband. But after all, maybe it's easier for me because I want to be a cookie-baking mom. I already told my man that's I won't stay home with the kids for that would drive me crazy, but I definitely want to bake cookies! ;-)
Anyhow – I think if someone sees it as a "I give up my dream and therefore I deserve a grand day", this person shouldn't get married (or do whatever action it is that takes the dreams away, e.g. have kids, stay at home, etc).
November 24, 2009 5:06 am
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I never thought of weddings as "the big day" "most important day of my life" type thing. I never thought of weddings at all, and as I'm planning mine now I still don't care. The marriage (as in the long haul, not just getting married) is the big deal for me, the wedding is just an excuse to drink champagne with my friends and wear a pretty dress (so pretty!). I sometimes feel like the odd man out because we really couldn't care less about the ceremony and the details and want to go straight to the party.
I don't see marriage as the end of my individual dreams and ambitions. I don't think I'll see having a child as that either. Why can't your goals coexist with your families needs? It's one thing if your buying Prada Bags with money you should be spending on food/clothing for your kids. But to say you have to give up school or work is just totally ridiculous to me. I wouldn't marry someone who expected me to completely drop everything and become a housewife.
And I agree it's not fair to your children to set the example that once you become a mother that's it. All passion and ambition and desire to do something disappears and it's all about diapers.
November 24, 2009 5:08 am
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well, like everything else in the wedding world, it's pretty specific to each person. but here are a couple things i know about me:
1) i am dieting before the big day. I thought I wouldn't but then I did.
2) i definitely plan on stopping after the wedding. inevitably, i'll gain weight. i'm not concerned about this but just in general i won't look as good as i did the day of my wedding. but, really, who can keep up with the maintenance it takes to look wedding day good?
3) i dunno about giving stuff up for kids. personally, some of the reasons i'm working so hard to be successful is so that my children have a role model and will have the resources to succeed themselves. but at the same time, it takes time and energy to be great at your career and it take energy to have a great relationship w/ your husband and children. i guess, just like life in general, it's about balance.
November 24, 2009 5:12 am
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Meg, I've always thought of the "my special day" nonsense as something invented by the WIC to convince brides to spend money. "It's Your Special Day, of COURSE your bridesmaids should shell out $400 for a bright pink taffeta monstrosity they'll never wear again!" or, "it's Your Special Day, why not make it unique by renting lovebirds for the reception?" (Lovebirds, apparently, are quite pricey, but I digress.)
But I think there's something to the idea of the "last hurrah" too. If we really are going to descend into a spiral of giving up our own needs and wants to please everyone else in the world after marriage, getting one day of unadulterated selfishness and being the "princess" at the center of everyone's attention starts to make sense, in a weird and sick way.
November 24, 2009 5:29 am
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I love the thought that motherhood inevitably follows from marriage. My fiance and I are seriously considering not having children. We're not "kid people," we never coo over babies, etc. And people look at us like we're monsters when we say that! As for the "perfect day," I'm just going for a party. A casual, fun get-together with relatives and friends I love. That connection between "wife" and "perfect day" seems more to stem from society and media's hype of it rather than anything else. So I guess I'd say they're only connected in how they're both propagated, if that makes sense.
November 24, 2009 5:40 am
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Man, I really hope that our wedding isn't the pinnacle of my existence as a married woman! But I think you're onto something, Meg. My fiance and I don't want to have children, and we're approaching our wedding day as more of an epic party with all of our friends in attendance, rather than "Our Perfect Day". Perhaps since I think my life will just keep getting better, I don't need the wedding to be Perfect.
November 24, 2009 5:50 am
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Of course the traditionals views of wifehood are tied into the concept of a wedding being the "happiest day of your life". If as a woman your only goal in life is to find a good husband so you can do all those wifey things, the culmination of that hunt would be a really big deal. If marrying is the biggest thing you are capable of doing, the wedding will be your happiest day. It is graduation day, the day you run a marathon and the day you make partner all rolled into one. That cultural (and very sexist) view says that women don't have any other dreams. Husband? Check, mission accomplished.
This is one of the reasons I didn't really want to get married. I highly doubt that my wedding day will be the happiest day of my life. I've had a lot of really effing happy days. And after I wed, I might still run a marathon or make partner and I'll feel pretty freaking good about myself that day.
As a marketing tool the "big day" thing is obviously really effective. I remember being a little girl dreaming of my princess wedding. I thought I'd be younger and have a floufier dress and a more devastatingly handsome groom. But when I found love – my big, deep, forever love – I didn't care if we got married. The idea of the big princess wedding seemed a little vulgar. By the time we started talking about having a wedding, we'd both already made the commitment. If I thought our wedding day was going to be the happiest day of my life, I wouldn't be getting married. I see a future with my fiance because I know we'll have lots of happy days. Quiet Sunday afternoon days, big accomplishment days, days with babies, days with crying, days with laughing, days with Chinese take-out, days when we acheive one dream and immediately find a new one. And those days will all be special and happy and memorable because we spend them together, not because I spent $8000 on my outfit.
November 24, 2009 5:59 am
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I chose my partner because he was someone with whom I wanted to share my dreams, and because he supports my dreams that have nothing to do with him.
My mother had her own life, her own career, her own hobbies, and went back to school for a second masters degree when I was a kid. I'm not saying she "had it all" but she was apretty good role model for coming close. I'd hate to deprive my kids of a similar role model by giving up my life for them.
November 24, 2009 6:04 am
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I had to think on this one…
I think it could go either way. If we are talking about the WIC then yes, I think that they do drill parts of that into your brain.
But, in reality, I really think the modern woman understands what she is looking for (that's why we're marrying later, having children later–if at all) I love a party, but a celebration that is deeply meaningful is what is the important piece. When you find your partner in life, you want to scream it from the rooftops. If you have the opportunity to share that with your loved ones, then great!
I also am not a fan of the 'it's just one day', because it's not.
November 24, 2009 6:16 am
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definitely.
November 24, 2009 6:34 am
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I think there is definitely a connection between the "the big day" and the wifely duties, but I think that was more important back when getting married WAS one of the main goals of young women. Back when women didn't go on to have careers outside the home and they were expected to be housewives and raise kids. Of course, back then most weddings weren't anything compared to the affairs of today.
I think now the WIC has hijacked that idea of the "big day" and made it in to the marketing ploy of the century. It is easy to get caught up in the hoopla, especially if you have a family who is willing to foot the bill for it. I think a lot of girls (although probably not many in this discussion) get so caught up in the day that they forget to dream about after that and I surely don't want to be that way either.
Same goes for kids… it is a big step and sometimes I think THAT dream makes it tough to dream out after it. It does get dangerous when you kids become your WHOLE life… suddenly you become a helicopter parent and are calling your kids COLLEGE professors about issues they are having in class (Yes, this actually happens). Not to mention your kids hit college and you berely know the man you married any more. I definitely don't think that makes for a good role model for a child (not to mention it probably gives the kid an inflated sense of self!).
Of course, since we're all having this discussion, and are concerned about the possibilities, I think we'll probably all going to be safe. :)
November 24, 2009 6:43 am
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Yeesh, how depressing! I hadn't thought of this before, but it certainly sounds plausible.
I looked forward to finding my man and getting married for years, but I knew the wedding day wasn't going to be the absolute pinnacle of my life, past and future; that's way too much pressure to put on one day and I expect to have some kick-butt fun times over the remainder of my life! I did want to look pretty and have a good time with friends and family while honoring what I thought was a sensible budget.
Looking at the culture though I think you are right especially about what happens to so many women when their children come along. They seem to absolutely lose themselves in raising the little people. I want to keep taking care of myself and having a great time with my husband even when kids come along. My mom put herself absolutely last so much of my childhood and it seemed like uneccessary martyrdom. And it sure didn't give me a good example of how to remain a complete person while also being a "wife" and "mother".
Here's to nurturing great ongoing relationships with our husbands and kids and also fulfilling the plans for our lives whatever shape they may take! And to not putting all our hopes in one fluffy dress worn for one day!
November 24, 2009 6:43 am
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Yes, I think they are linked.
If you're going to take on the role of the long-suffering wife, putting herself second to her family for the rest of her life, then definitely you will buy into the notion that you deserve to make the best of being a bride.
Hopefully, if that role can be quashed, and being a wife can be redefined in a less negative way, then the need to be 'princess for a day' will be gone. And everyone can just get on with having a lovely wedding celebration that is meaningful to them.
November 24, 2009 6:52 am
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I think yes, the origins of the current WIC are based in a place where a woman's last hurrah is her wedding day.
Today, the way we obsess over weddings, is not necessarily for that reason anymore – I think we don't know the reason anymore. We want to throw big weddings because it's what people do, not because we consciously know/believe/accept this is the biggest thing we'll ever accomplish.
Many women I'm sure still have that mentality but I think even women who have no intention of giving up their dreams for their husband & future children still may want to throw big fantastic weddings – we have adjusted the motivation to having a celebration with your closest friends and family and just having fun and it isn't necessarily thought of as the best day of your life (at least not by team practical types).
but if a wedding never had historically never been a woman's last hurrah, I don't think the WIC could hijack it as well as they do.
I'm not sure I'm articulating this as well as I'd like! but ultimately yes I think the two lines of cultural chatter are very much connected.
November 24, 2009 7:04 am
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For me, I don't think I really automatically have all these negative associations with the word "wife" and I'm 51.
There are too many people and too many variations in lifestyle for me to have this knee-jerk reaction.
I will say, I don't understand the princess connection to the act of getting married to another human being. When I hear a bride say she wants to look like a princess, my brain disconnects.
I'm so proud that we don't have a monarchy here. You would think a bride would be happy with looking like a beautiful woman in love making an important committment.
November 24, 2009 7:10 am
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I'm very excited for the "big day," but even more excited for the life we'll both lead afterwards. I like the planning process, I like thinking about what the loft is going to look like all done up, but in the end, it's a day. Our lives will really be the important part.
I brought up the "I'm #1, you're #2, kid is #3" to my fiance and he didn't get it. He just figured he would fall to #3 after future kid was born and I think that's crazy talk. Things change when kids come around, but I really think things don't have to be abandoned. Your life develops a new purpose, but not at the detriment of your own existence.
November 24, 2009 7:14 am
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haha I hadn't read all the comments before posting, I think Ashley just said almost exactly what I wanted to say – with fewer typos. thanks Ashley. :)
November 24, 2009 7:15 am
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I dunno…just to play devil's advocate for a moment, there are lots of women who totally embrace the "princess for a day" hype (from all cultures) and enjoy spending the money, having the celebration, etc. Do I think it's tacky and unnecessary to flaunt your $ this way? Definitely. But I don't know if it's all pressure from the outside…there are lots of people who just love being the center of attention and having a reason to spend a lot of money. So maybe for some at least they are not having the big party because they are scared it will be their last moment of fun, but because this is a moment where they are socially/ culturally entitled to have it all.
Traditionally, I think the bigness & perfection of a wedding is meant to reflect the parents' wealth. I'm sure it has a lot of layers, including the one you discussed… but it used to be a celebration for daddy's business friends as much as it was for you. The idea that it's "your" wedding is actually kind of recent! A lot of people still have tension on this issue with their parents.
There IS something to the idea of having the fairytale before you settle down to cook with & wash all the stuff you got in your dream registry…on the other hand, there are a lot of other cultures in which big "fairytale" weddings are the norm and it is not at all for the individual woman but for her family. Maybe this is more of a Western idea.
November 24, 2009 7:18 am
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Meg, this is a really interesting viewpoint, and I think it's definitely true for some people (sad, sad, sad!) A friend and I have talked at length about another possibility for the "perfect day" syndrome, which is this: women (people, but let's talk about brides for a minute) are inherently creative, but many women who work full time/go to school don't have a natural creative outlet. They aren't knitting or painting when they get home from work- they're watching TV and reading People magazine. And on TV and in People, they're seeing a bunch of famous, rich women who throw really expensive parties and wear a different gown/hairstyle to every red carpet event. So who cares if they screw up their hair one night- next week, they might be on the best dressed list.
Fast forward to the wedding planning. Suddenly, these women HAVE a creative outlet, be it invitations, decor planning, color choices, AND they have a reason to throw a (very often) very expensive party and wear a gown and pick a hairstyle. However, they don't have the money do to this every week, so they can only do it once. So of course it has to be perfect– they'll never have the gown and the hair and this creative outlet again.
I think society doesn't encourage us to be more complete people in general, whether we are single, engaged, married, kids or no kids. We're taught to make a paycheck, have a nice home, feed ourselves, maybe work out, and then eat dinner in front of the TV. So weddings bring out the creativity we've been longing for, but also brings out the desperation to "get it right." If we were more creative more often, maybe it wouldn't feel like the once-in-a-lifetime chance to be artistic or glamorous?
November 24, 2009 7:24 am
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Lauren I totally agree with you. Personally, I plan a lot of gatherings/parties, and I get a whole lotta satisfaction from doing it. I hope to actually make a career out of it one day! It is a huge creative outlet.
Meg I love your blog, and when I read posts/conversation like this, it fills my heart and I feel so understood, instead of feeling like a leper because I don't want to be a pretty princess in a froofy dress with all my perfection surrounding me. I go by Princess out of irony more than anything lol
November 24, 2009 7:39 am
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Well, I think you definitely have hit upon something Meg – in terms of the connection btwn "princess for day" and "drudge for the rest of your life." Hopefully we are moving away from both those tropes though…
I also think Lauren's point about weddings being most people's one big creative outlet has a lot of resonance for me. Of course I'm a lawyer, and thus not only personally artistically-challenged, but professionally uncreative to boot. In some ways I found the design elements of the wedding a hugely unusual and unique opportunity. I know that this may seem crazy to the DIY crowd, but some of us don't really "create" anything on a daily basis (except perhaps legal briefs)!
November 24, 2009 7:46 am
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I can only speaking for myself, of course. However, I don't think that the two lines of thought are related. For example in my case I want my big day, and I want it mainly because I'm a performer and I like shows :) I don't plan to just be a wife (I have a career or better yet TWO careers in full bloom), I don't want kids not even under torture, I don't listen to Opra and I don't read romantic novels (it's either scientific literature or philosophical books or work-related magazines).
Plain and simple, I think that the "big day" concept is connected to the past, when a woman (and a man!) didn't have money for big celebrations aside from weddings, and when weddings were forever. I do think that a person who believes in that "forever" line is more inclined to spend on her/his wedding than somebody who thinks "I'm married as long as I'll be fine with the obligations".
As a kid, I've never dreamed about my wedding. I was a total tomboy. I haven't actually EVER dreamt about my wedding before meeting my husband to be. I think it's pretty natural to want a show for the day of your one and only commitment… it's just that we all have different ideas of what a "show" means. For me, it means a cozy wedding with my bestest friends, in a secluded venue of an old and romantic island (Ireland), eating organic food, listening to classical music and immersing myself in the environment whose decor reproduces themes and threads that I've always loved (lace, pearls, tulle, ribbons, candles, feathers). I don't care if it's just "one" day. It's definitely NOT "any" day.
November 24, 2009 7:47 am
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@Lauren
Wise, wise, wise. I think *that* deserves more exploring. ie, how can we take the creative parts of wedding planning we like, and make them into part who we are? How can we keep the creative, un-attached to the wedding?
Very interesting.
November 24, 2009 8:04 am
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I think I agree with Ashley and Lauren and Meg, along with a little bit of a different perspective (because it's such a complex thing, I don't think there's a single driving force behind the Princess-Bride beastly creation). I've long found the princess day idea really disturbing, and I do think it's tied in with the idea of being a wife as the pinnacle of our gender's value, even as so many of us have worked to redefine notions of gender and value. I also think it's part of the narcissism enabled by consumerism. Our birthdays and Christmas are "mememe" days too and a wedding takes that "presentspresentsmememe" to the extreme. Birthdays, Christmas and Weddings used to be small family-oriented affairs that have now become marketing nightmares.
But also, I think there are a lot of women who want to be "saved" from the boredom of their everyday lives, who want that prince charming fantasy, and who have never given the hard work and joys or marriage much thought. The think of the wedding and they think of kids, but they're fuzzy on the marriage and the wedding is a great distraction and creative outlet. (this does NOT mean all creative brides are bored. I personally am having a ball with the design precisely because I spend too much time with excel at the office.) But, I think many women (and men) hit adulthood and realize it wasn't all we'd hoped for. And a wedding, with all it's gendered overtones and marketed overtones, provides a perfect whirlwind of escape into princess fantasy bridehood and pushes of the reckoning about what they want fro marriage and wifehood and family.
November 24, 2009 8:04 am
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Total "last hurrah". Dude gets the bachelor party, lady gets the wedding, and they are sadly similar in the sense that "this is it".
I think that folks need to be able to make a distinction between insidious cultural messages and what they are explicitly thinking when they make decisions; perhaps that is the source of some of the misunderstandings in this post/thread. I don't think ANYONE plans a wedding explicitly thinking, "This better be good, because my life will just be hard from here on out." I don't think the WIC EXPLICITLY sends that message (not posi enough!).
But the point is that these messages about marriage still exist, and still get to us, thanks to pop culture, family discussions, etc., and that a lot of messages affect us and how we think about the world without us being totally aware of that. And it's important to explore that, for the obvious reasons.
November 24, 2009 8:16 am
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Oh, there's definitely room to make that connection.
I had a pretty harsh realization myself when I got engaged. We were literally floating on the moon ecstatic to dream about our little future together, and over frozen yogurt discussed what that might look like. We imagined travel, we talked of his options for medical schools, we giggled over how lovely it'd be to wake up next to each other every day (we're long-distance, two years and running)
Our little minds couldn't seem to make the jump from engagement to "wedding"–we skipped a step and went right to imagining the marriage!
Unfortunately, we were bitterly disappointed when we realized how much of this talk of the "most beautiful, meaningful day of your life" was a sham! So surprised were we to find that it's about money & social obligation rather than the love of the couple (if it were simply about the love of the couple, weddings wouldn't look like they do! We could simply gather together our family, with limited pomp, and say our vows! Dress, flowers, seating cards optional)
I think that weddings have evolved as a way to set women up for failure. It becomes materialistic (something "bad" women and "good" wives never are) and yeah, it does give a woman the vibe that if you don't do this right then the marriage won't start off on the right foot. Of course if she believes that the wedding has anything to do with the marriage, she's already bowed to consumerist will. To the idea that by putting on the white dress she's signing a social contract–one that puts her in the realm of "normal", and then pressures her to do other "normal" things like reproduce and cook a five course meal while wearing heels.
It sort of never ends.
November 24, 2009 8:29 am
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Of course they're linked. But then this comment from Anonymous resonates with me too….
"…there are lots of people who just love being the center of attention and having a reason to spend a lot of money. So maybe for some at least they are not having the big party because they are scared it will be their last moment of fun, but because this is a moment where they are socially/ culturally entitled to have it all."
I also completely agree with Lauren and the notion that this is your ONE chance to spend all that money on a party so every bit of it had better be perfect. I don't think that that is just weddings though. I think that our culture has lost all ability to appreciate imperfection and if it's not perfect ('it' being your career, home, relationship, friendships, children) then they're inherently inferior. And no one want to be inferior.
November 24, 2009 8:30 am
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yes, yes, yes to Lauren regarding the creative outlet. That is very much how I felt about my wedding (which was about a month ago). Societal obligations staunch our creative sides for years, and finally, we have this "excuse" to go all out and design and decorate and do all those things we wish we could do every day if we didn't have to, you know, make money. I wouldn't say this is true for every woman, but for me, this was a big part of our wedding budget, time, and sense of satisfaction. I created and designed pretty much everything from the dress to the favors and it was so wonderful to have that creative outlet that's missing in our day-to-day lives.
regarding the letting go of your dreams to have children bit — this is a great fear of mine, and one reason why I'm still undecided about having kids. i, personally, don't know ANY mothers who have continued to follow their dreams after children. I don't think it was a purposeful act, but something that just happened. in the same way that many other obligations can suffer while you're planning a wedding just because you're so wrapped up in it all, except raising a child lasts for much much longer! also, when you become a parent, i think you WANT to spend as much time with the child as possible, so you become less productive in other areas of your life.
November 24, 2009 8:38 am
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After having a pretty-much-perfect wedding and now having experienced over a month of marriage, I have to report that I have actually discovered that my newfound security in my marriage has emboldened me to more fully pursue my dreams and express myself as ME. Which sort of suggests that in reality, post-marriage you may end up being MORE yourself than you were before, suggesting that the big bang was more of a "get ready for life to get seriously awesome" than "say goodbye". But of course, it's all in how you choose to experience it, right?
November 24, 2009 8:42 am
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I think it is really interesting that you bring this up because since the minute I got engaged, I continue to feel like my dreams are already disintegrating into thin air. Although I love the man I am choosing to marry, I also had a shattered dream regarding the way we got engaged. The ring isn't what I hoped for (and I never thought I would be a girl who needed it to be fancy, but I do). So now I feel like the wedding has become this unexpected platform for me to assert my dreams and independence because it is quickly becoming true, in my case, that life will no longer be about my dreams and needs, but about my future husband's, my parents and my in-law's dreams. I wish this weren't my story, but it is hard to not want to be pampered for a day, and for it to be perfect because I'm pretty sure the road I'm heading down is one that is full of compromises where my dreams are no longer important. Not only is what you mentioned, Meg, in our cultural landscape regarding the "bride" and "wife" role, but it is so much so that I'm battling it through my future husband, parents and in-laws. Weird, huh?
November 24, 2009 8:49 am
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hm. I've actually never thought of it that way before, but the whole "big day" theme makes a lot more sense.
Also, practically every woman I know doesn't necessarily "let herself go" but her priority isnt herself anymore. She'd rather spend her time/enegry/money on her kids & husband, making sure they're cared for first. And I dont think its a conscious effort at all. Its instinct. Most animals will go cold or hungry before they let their children suffer.
November 24, 2009 8:50 am
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Frankly, I just wanted a big (and, yes even special) day to celebrate my love for my husband and his for mine. I wish our friends and family all lived in the same area, but they're spread all over the world. It's hard to get them all together in one place on one day and we really wanted that. I saw it more as a great big celebration of a new beginning (more symbolic than actual, as we've been committed to each other for 5 years and living together, but still) and that's what it was. If it's more of a hopes and dreams "funeral" – maybe you picked the wrong guy/girl?
November 24, 2009 8:51 am
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You know, maybe this is completely the wrong thing to post on this blog, but I asked my mom about this giving up your dreams bit after having kids (I'm scared to death of having kids and totally losing myself for them). She told me she didn't give up her dreams, but she was quite surprise to find that some of her dreams changed after having kids. Would that be the worst thing either?
November 24, 2009 8:54 am
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I'm a second-time bride and people have gone from one extreme to the other with me. Some treat it like it means less because I've been married before and others run the whole "best day of your life" business. I don't like either one. Yeah it will be special because basically it's a celebration that says "Hey, look how friggin happy we are. We're so happy we're making public a commitment we've already shared in private.So come be happy with us." I have no problem with the day being deemed special, but it's not the end-all be-all of our relationship. It's more important what happens on all the days after that one. That's just my opinion.
November 24, 2009 8:57 am
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I think Evi is right, when you say it like that, as a final HURRAH it's a funeral. A good bye to all that was and to ourselves. I think in someways it is a goodbye because the change is obviously substantial and what is after is not and cannot be the same as before, but hopefully what comes after a wedding is better and includes just as much independence and US-ness. But since I read that I can't help but think that there is a certain sadness to a wedding, just as there is a certain sadness in growing up and having children, because we are losing something that cannot be regained. Even if what we are gaining is much much better.
November 24, 2009 9:05 am
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Very interesting topic, Meg. In fact, I was just over at Stylemepretty.com and sadly, found the following words describing a designer gown:
"It’s about living the dream…the little girl dream that you’ve always had. It’s about being a princess for a day…but not a stuffy, demure princess. A princess that is sophisticated, totally chic, unapologetically glamorous." SMP
=/ As someone who found the idea of "One Perfect Day" or "The Big Day" quite humorous, I just never bought into the hype. Even when I became engaged I never dreamed about my wedding. I mainly freaked out about how me and the mister would pay for it. Big or not!
I find it disappointing that so much emphasis is placed on "the day", when there are SO many more grand occasions in a couple's life that merit the same recognition we accord to a wedding celebration.
I'll never forget the vacation me and my boy took to Rome. Walking thru the halls of the Vatican, in awe of the grandness and art that surrounded us… Now THAT was a BIG DAY! And we weren't even married then. Point being, there are many "big days" in life. A wedding is one of them, but not the end all be all the WIC portrays it as.
November 24, 2009 9:17 am
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Agreement with accordiansandlace and Sarah*
On a less negative note – When you take away the gross consumerism of the wedding industry and the underlying message of fathers "giving away" the bride, there is still something valuable and beautiful about a wedding, traditional or offbeat.
Weddings have a strong anthropological place in our culture. Two people standing in front of an officiant is a symbol that's recognized throughout our cuture. Older generations relive their weddings as young people follow the same tradition. Its a common thread of our culture that nearly everyone shares.
I've sort of started seeing my wedding as a rite of passage like learning to ride a bike or wearing a stupid hat at graduation. The wedding ceremony does have meaning outside of the couple, that's why we invite our loved ones, our community.
I told my mom I didn't think I wanted to wear a veil and she pushed back. She's pretty easy going about my non-traditionality and when I asked what the big deal was, she said "When else will you ever be able to wear a veil?" All the tradition of the wedding is kind of oppressive and I certainly won't participate in all of them, but I'm trying not to let my feminist desire to 'change the world' take me out of the moment. The fact of the matter is, that moment will be in the U.S. of A in 2010 and that's a time when people have weddings, and wear veils and carry bouquets as part of a long-standing tradition. Whatever WIC sells us consumer whores about that tradition, its foundation is in love and I think its okay to buy in for tradition's sake.
November 24, 2009 9:29 am
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@Joanna
I feel that way. I hope a lot of others here feel that way, and I think we (and I) am working to encourage that line of thought for all of us. The more you hear things said publically, the easier it is to be confident living that. But as A&L; just wisely said:
"I think that folks need to be able to make a distinction between insidious cultural messages and what they are explicitly thinking when they make decisions… The point is that these messages about marriage still exist, and still get to us, thanks to pop culture, family discussions, etc., and that a lot of messages affect us and how we think about the world without us being totally aware of that. And it's important to explore that."
November 24, 2009 9:41 am
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@Sarah*
I think what you said here is really interesting:
"that by putting on the white dress she's signing a social contract–one that puts her in the realm of "normal", and then pressures her to do other "normal" things like reproduce and cook a five course meal while wearing heels."
Sometimes I felt that planning a wedding… like people thought if they could just get me to BLANK (wear a traditional dress, have a traditional shower, or whatever) than they had me. If I did BLANK I would cease to be scary, I wouldn't be challenging 'the way things are done,' I'd understand why 'the way things are done' was the best way to do things, and I'd be all set for a nice normal life.
Now, mind you, I don't think this sort of thought has actual merit, and I don't think we should make our decisions baised on this. Did I wear a white dress? Heck yeah. I wanted to. And that was that, d*mn the whatever the symbolism is.. But I do think that these messages are part of why our choices feel loaded in wedding land… why you want to somehow get them right (right for you, not right for society).
Hum. Thought provoking.
November 24, 2009 9:58 am
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Meg, I'd be inclined to agree with you. As other commenters have said, the phrase "Your Special Day" was probably used to justify spending lots of money on things you wouldn't normally consider buying, but it's "Your Special Day", hopefully a once-in-a-lifetime event, so not only are you justified in your spending, it's necessary!
As sad as it is, the idea of a wife as someone who's giving up on her dreams to get tied down and pop out kidlets is definitely a problem in our culture. I used to believe that, but not so much anymore.
November 24, 2009 10:21 am
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Interesting post and comments (though I didn't read them all yet). Another idea that struck me is the element of control. It's the one day that our culture allows women to control every aspect. The bride gets to tell her best friends what to wear down to the nail polish on their fingers. She can also dictate what her mother wears and what the guests wear (semi-formal attire, please). She gets to choose who sits together and when and for how long people are allowed to dance. Of course, not every bride chooses to do these things, but brides, for the most part, get a pass to be as controlling as they choose to be.
November 24, 2009 10:47 am
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I totally think that they go hand in hand. Having married into a evangelical christian, literal bible believing family the first time around, I was doted upon by all of the women in his family during the wedding process. Then, I was told to submit. Submit and obey, cause that's how it works. He cheats on you, forgive him and forget it; he's head of the house, he's allowed.
So, yeah, I think from certain cultural perspectives, this day does function a bit like a funeral. And by buying into all the hooplah, we women are the ones pulling the trigger (to some degree).
My previous experience played a lot into my putting my foot down this time. If it's a big day, it's OUR big day. I don't want to look like a princess (wow, did that stop salespeople in their tracks) because I am not a princess. Why be any different than I am any other day?
A wedding's a big deal, but not the biggest. I think most need to stop seeing it as such.
November 24, 2009 11:05 am
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I think the money is a huge, huge part of it. Especially in the last fifteen years, we've lived in a society that has raised the use of consumerism to define our identities to crazy new heights. We are taught to have all sorts of desires and aspirations that we can't actually afford–so the one day when we are spending a lot of money becomes a chance to affirm our place in a consumer society in ways that we otherwise can't do.
This is also, I think, what makes some people go so far the other way in our DIY-fest craziness, which can be equally paralyzing. It's still a way to define ourselves by our consumer choices, when what we really are trying for is a chance to have a day that is not primarily consumerism. But we don't actually have that much control over the way our subjectivities are shaped by the culture in which we live.
November 24, 2009 11:07 am
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I absolutely think this is the case. Culturally, as women we are encouraged to put our needs second, especially when it comes to traditional structures like family. Unlike when a ship is sinking in old movies and they yell "Women and children first," it most definitely isn't women first. So if you spend most of your life (even in this day and age!) with your voice not being heard, there might be a real need for a day where you are heard, when it is "all about you."
I think emotional and creative control over big life events is incredibly important. However, if the current weddingitis is a function of lack of creative and emotional control over our lives in general, then I think we–as Lauren and Meg suggested–have to spread that around a bit and make sure we are advocates for ourselves and our creativity more of the time and not just on "our big day." Personally, I am in the camp of there are two people getting married, and family, and guests, so I think of the wedding as hosting an event, rather than being the center of it all. So for me there are just as many fun ways to geek out about planning a Thanksgiving as there are about planning a wedding. Thank you, Etsy!
But as Amanda said, a wedding being all about the bride is relatively recent–not so long ago it was about the families. So all this "your special day" talk is new: there is something odd going on here.
November 24, 2009 11:13 am
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Can I just skip the bride part and become a wife? There are no expectations in my relationship as to how I should be once my wedding day has come and gone.
My man says it so perfectly "The wedding is when I look at you, the wedding is when I came to your porch that night and took you for that drive, the wedding is in our bed when we go to sleep at night, the wedding is in everything."
The word "wedding" is so LOADED. There are expectations come at us from both sides and it's getting kind of scary! You're either cookie-cutter with the chicken dinner and diamond ring or you're unconventional with the "conflict free" or vintage ring and vegetarian dinner. There's a community and blog for every kind of "bride" and it's overwhelming. I love Team Practical but sometimes I have to shut it all out and focus on myself and what I want. I don't even like to tell people what kind of wedding we're having because I'm afraid of being one of those "snobby indie brides". Sometimes I'm "cookie cutter" and sometimes I'm "unconventional" but I know that I'm always 100% myself and isn't that all that matters?
I'm really interested to hear from some same sex couples because so much of this wedding business is focused on what happens to a woman when she marries a man. What does the word "wife" (or husband) hold for you? What are the expectations that you feel you need to fulfill after your "big day"?
November 24, 2009 11:25 am
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I think the cultural chatter around 'princess' and 'big day' etc. may be linked to a long history of women being valued for their physical beauty over all other attributes.
Now, women today know that beauty is defined on MANY levels, but some of the historic chatter, remains…
November 24, 2009 12:02 pm
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like so many other comments before me, I also think that "The Big Day" thing is linked to society's prescribed idea of what it means to be a wife. However, women have fought hard to have it all – kids, family, career, dreams. While it is all about balance, I have witnessed first hand how difficult that can be. I work with a lot of older women who have kids, and a family and a career and I can see how hard it is for so many of them to balance everything. You wake up at 6 in the morning and cook breakfast, wake the kids up, send them off to daycare of school and rush to work. You work a full 8 hour day (more often times) and pick up your kids after work, you go home and cook and do chores and take care of your family, and at the end of a day it sure feels like you've barely had any time for yourself – or even for you and your husband. So many couples I know who are struggling with both parents working and taking care of their kids because the cost of daycare is so high, often times the wage of one parent alone is needed to cover that. There is one woman I know who after her second child, did the math, and figured out that the cost of sending two children to daycare barely leaves her anything from her salary. So she decided to stay home to raise the kids. Is she giving up her dreams? not really, because she is still doing smaller gigs on the side. But to her, it was more important to be able to raise her children herself than having to send them to daycare at the age of 1 and on and barely seeing them for a few hours a day.
While that's said, I've also seen a lot of (in my opinion at least) irresponsible mothers who seem to have it all on the outside – husband, kids, career, money, style/fashion. But they leave their children at home with a nanny and barely see them. I don't think that's good parenting, nor is it fair for the children. But at the same time, is this type of behavior linked back to the social notion of what women should have? and one of them being having children? Maybe these women just had children for the sake of having them.
And on the other hand, do you think that the more progressive view that every woman should have kids, family, career and all of that is also enforcing itself as an expectation? I think that women shouldn't be expected to either a) stay home and raise the kids and "give up their dreams" or b) have to "have it all". I think the true beauty of "freedom" is the freedom to choose, no mater what everyone else is doing.
November 24, 2009 12:10 pm
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my parents are divorced, and being young, the idea that i might actually marry the person i happened to be in a relationship honestly never occurred to me until he mentioned it. we had only been together for a little over a year, and i laughed it off as simply preposterous.
the next summer, he mentioned, on the way to a wedding, "maybe at this time next year, we'll be engaged." at that point, i knew that we were going to be together, and from that point, the idea of marriage became somewhat rooted in my brain. it was nice to have the security of knowing that you were going to be with someone.
we finally got engaged not the following summer, but the one after that. the idea had been in my head so long, that the WIC was finally started to strain on me, and i was like, "when is it going to happen already??"
i've enjoyed the wedding planning process. i'm trying to incorporate what i feel are the "necessary splurges" along with a healthy dose of reality and sanity! i do want the day to be a great one, a memorable one, and i want to look pretty and do all those girly things. however, i don't want to get so caught up in that that i forget the real meaning of the day, nor do i expect the day to be completely "perfect" or the best day of my life! i should hardly hope that at 25, there is nothing better yet to come! i see it more as like my coming out party – i'm finally at a point in my life where i'm comfortable with myself, and i want to proclaim my love to someone to everyone around me.
November 24, 2009 12:10 pm
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I think the whole idea of a wedding being the best day of you life is an easy trap to fall into. And that, in order to be realistic, you need to realize that there will be days later on in life that may exceed how great you felt on your wedding day. If you're that lucky, of course.
I also think that if kids aren't part of your "dream" for your life, then you shouldn't have them. Obviously, having kids means having to sacrifice some things, but it shouldn't be ALL about the sacrifice. You should want them more than anything, really, or it's not worth bringing a semi-desired baby into the world.
November 24, 2009 12:14 pm
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I agree with the previous poster who said- "I think the whole idea of a wedding being the best day of you life is an easy trap to fall into. And that, in order to be realistic, you need to realize that there will be days later on in life that may exceed how great you felt on your wedding day. If you're that lucky, of course. "
My wedding was beautiful, just as I imagined and yes- special.
It was chaotic though & busy- and to be honest- it was definitely a great day that i'll always remember but i can definitely say that there will be better days ahead :)
I enjoyed wedding planning just as much as the big day. I think looking back it wasnt just the one day that made it special – it was the entire year leading up to it.
I cherish everyday of planning leading up to it & I'll cherish every day I have in our marriage afterwards.
For me- like previous posters have said- the wedding gave me a creative outlet that I didnt have otherwise. I would be lying if I said that i didnt dream for the perfect wedding.
But in the end, its just 1 day. And in the end, its the marriage thats most important. And a marriage lasts a lifetime. So, in my eyes, I have a lifetime to celebrate!
November 24, 2009 12:37 pm
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This is a tough one. The funny part for me is that I never thought that my wedding day would be the happiest day of my life, but you know what, it WAS the happiest day of my life so far. I have never smiled so much or felt so loved and loving as I did that day surrounded by people I love. I hope that I can continue to draw on that feeling as I work on being the best wife possible to my husband while maintaining my self. Because it is work. Hard work. There is no room for being a princess here. I think that there will always be times when someone has to be put first, but I also believe that it can be done and that it is a very individual decision. I do wonder about the cultural thoughts on marriage. As a single woman in my late 20s, I got a lot of "poor you, you will find your prince, but isn't it nice that you have a great career, good for you" and the instant I was married my patients are ready for me to retire and have kids and I steel myself and say "I have worked to damn hard to get where I am to quit now…" I do wonder about kids and how they will fit in. I think that it is important for me to think that I don't have to give up my dreams, but I may have to give some of the time that I devote to them when I have kids…. But I also think that your kids can be part of that dream and dreams change…
And-The WIC can shove it. Seriously. They may be able to sell me a pretty dress, but they can't make me a princess!
-Meghan
November 24, 2009 1:10 pm
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I think there is SO much validity to your theory, Meg, but I also agree with whoever said that sometimes, your dreams change after you get married, and/or have kids. Not all of them, but probably some of them, and HOW they change is impossible to predict.
I have a girlfriend who has been incredibly hard-working and career-oriented for her entire life (well, after age 15, at least), and spent the bulk of her 20s carving out a path for herself. She was in a relationship the entire time, blazing onward, rising through the ranks, making more and more money with each passing year. They got married, and not much changed for several years in terms of her professional trajectory. Then, she got pregnant and she was adamant that her baby would not completely take over her life, or distract her from her personal goals, her marriage, or her friendships.
Then she gave birth, and she tried really, really hard to deliver on those promises. But slowly and surely, she's realized that her dreams have changed completely, in a way she never could have imagined before. She changed jobs, taking a pay cut, reduced responsibility and increased stability because it enables her to spend more time with her son. She opts out of girls' night every so often because it enables her to spend more time with her husband. And yes, they even bought a car that looks suspiciously like a mini-van. Not exactly, but pretty damn close!
Then again, her husband is a stay at home dad, they regularly travel abroad with an infant, and there's nary a mom-jean in sight.
My point is, she's not stupid, and she hasn't fallen prey to cultural norms and expectations. She's simply realized that her priorities have changed along with her circumstances in a way she never anticipated. Because she COULDN'T.
And that's OK, right? I mean, that's life – you live it and you make choices and those choices lead to more options, and in turn more choices, and so on and so on. You can plan and plan and plan, but you can't predict how things will turn out or how you will react to them.
I think people sometimes make the mistake of saying things like 'I know myself well enough to know XXX,' or 'There's no way that I will ever XXX' or any number of other things that really only serve to limit us; either our potential or our options or something else.
November 24, 2009 1:13 pm
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@colorofabsence (great name! ah!)
I totally agree with most of what you're saying… and think it's interesting at that. But by "not give up your dreams" I don't mean "don't stay home with your kids." I keep saying, and saying, and saying, that I really have no particular bias one way or the other. I think women should be empowered to make a choice, and be able to *stay* empowered no matter what choice they make (and that is the bit I worry about, I think society works to strip women of power no matter what choice they make, by making them feel like the other choice was better). And I do think you can stay home with kids and *not* give up dreams. Of course!! So much of course I didn't even mention it.
I do think it's interesting how loaded this stay at home mom/ not stay at home mom thing is… even for a group of women who are mostly not mothers. It gets read into so many statements I make, where I'm not at all talking about it. And the perception is always that I am, for some reason, against staying home with your kids. Which I find particularly interesting since I'm leaning towards staying home… in some way or another… with projects on the side…. probably… but who knows?
Anyway. Just noting that this dichotomy seems to be one of the most weighted ones we have as women.
@Miss Fancy Pants
Having dreams and wanting kids can go hand in hand. That's the point exactly, you can have dreams and goals and that does not mean your kids are semi-desired, it means your kids are blessed. Because a parent with passions is a blessing.
@all
Of course your dreams *change* after you have kids, sillies. I din't even think I had to clarify that. But changing is different than no longer having. Really different.
November 24, 2009 1:55 pm
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So much agreement here! It makes me wonder also about all of the "women's stories" we are taught as girls which end with "and they got married and lived happily ever after." Rom coms, fairy tales, and most stories with a female lead have the wedding as the ending. Maybe the pressure is in part this is the end of your story as the "lead." From here on out you play a supporting role. (ew)
On the plus side, I must say that I find it empowering to think that I can do my own little part to end bridal-obsession by having a kick-ass life in marriage.
November 24, 2009 1:57 pm
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Yes Meg.
I'm getting married in March. My grandmother (bless her heart) just told me that I'll 'be fat in five years'. I responded with something like 'Um Nana that's….mean… and a very general statement that is obviously made up'. She let me know, silly me, that its scientific fact that women grow fat within exactly five years of marriage. She studied it in college. Yes, this conversation really occured.
So according to my grandmother (and our culture, I do believe):
My wedding day is the first day of the rest of my fat, homely life. I better look cute now, and take lots of pictures to document my pre-childbearing hips.
November 24, 2009 2:26 pm
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By the way Meg, you are so graceful with your disclaimer after disclaimer. I wonder if feminism will always be such a minefield, or equality with men and equality with each other will one day be as accepted as 'the world is round'.
Empowerment and employment are obviously not interchangeable words. Empowerment is the ability to choose to be married or single, become a mother or not, work full time or run a household, or anything in between, and make these choices because they are what you desire. The next step in that evolution is to fight not to define other women using labels and generalizations. That's the goal, right? Accepting other women's choices as legitimate, whether we agree or not?
November 24, 2009 2:49 pm
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Lisa Meg and all,
maybe there is a reason for the end of the fairytale… I mean, it might just be that women viscerally understand the importance of relationships much more than the average man does (and that's a fact, I think, and no news!). So for a man marriage couldn't possibly represent much because, as a general rule, he doesn't have the same drive toward relationships that a woman has (again as a general rule).
Many women – unfortunately – give in to stereotypes, on both sides of the fence, ie some chose to work while having kids in order not to be scolded if they don't, whereas others chose not to work even if they would like to because of their upbringing and another kind of pressure.
As a person about to get married AND as a WP I've never realized how many stereotypes wedding professional have… most of them (and they mostly are… women, surprise surprise!) have their idea of invitation, gown, reception, style and they try to impose it on you even when it doesn't feed their pocket. It's very curious that such kind of pressure can come from women….! And how about stereotyping the classical woman who isn't mamby pamby, who knows what she wants, who wants value for her money? Here it is, Bridezilla. NOBODY would call a man wanting the exact car he craves for, with all his list of optionals, but somehow women are stereotyped… and by other women… food for thought, don't you think?
November 24, 2009 3:00 pm
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I do think there's something to this. It's like the last ball, the last hurrah, after which you have to live for others.
I also think there's something to the idea that getting married is the best thing any woman will ever do in her life, so it has to be a Big Huge Day. I remember a radio commercial for Lasik surgery, where a man talked about seeing his son's college graduation and his daughter's wedding. Those choices as heartstring-tugging events were really telling.
BTW, on the mom debate: neither SAHMs nor working outside the home moms are stereotypes. I've known moms of both kinds who still followed their dreams and passions in life — and moms of both kinds who didn't. (Having a job doesn't necessarily mean it's your true calling.)
My own mother stayed at home sometimes and worked outside the home at other times, but she was always a great mom precisely because she was herself as well as being my mom, whether she was at home with us full time, going to school, or working. I can't predict where life will take me, but I hope I can be like her in that way.
November 24, 2009 4:02 pm
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Meg- I really admire you and the way you write and allow for all view points and opinions and ways of life…..it is starting to seem to me at times, though, that some of the women commenting feel the need to buck the system just to prove they are not falling in line with that society dictates….and by telling other women that they are less than for wanting something traditional can be just as alienating….it's all such a delicate balance..especially when discussing marriage and what that means to our sense of identity. It also bums me out to read comments from people about how the ceremony doesn't matter to them or they could care less about getting married because eff the system!
I DO care about having a nice wedding…because I want to share that moment with our friends and family…and for me the ceremony is the most important part! That's the whole point!!! Well…and a kick ass dance party!
November 24, 2009 4:14 pm
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Yeah, the "last hurrah" idea resonates with a lot of what I've seen in the WIC. I also like what Abby-Wan Kenobi said about the goal of Getting A Husband being historically a woman's goal.
Or rather, I think those ideas are factors in the Big Day story, but not the only factors. I think it's also true, like other commenters have said, that people will grab at an excuse to have a day All About Them, and that it's an opportunity to be creative that many people don't have elsewhere.
I also think that weddings are frequently about the families showing off, or negotiating a place in their social groups. Several members of my family were much more into the Big Day idea than I was, and I think at least part of that was because they felt my wedding reflected very strongly on them. In a way, my wedding day was a culmination and celebration of how they raised me and about the trajectory of the family moving into the future. Me looking awesome in front of 100 people wasn't about me, it was me as a symbol of the family.
November 24, 2009 4:26 pm
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ALL I WANT IS A KICK ASS EFFIN PARTY!!!
November 24, 2009 5:07 pm
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@Carrie
Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.
@T-Bone
Indeed. Indeed.
November 24, 2009 5:27 pm
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I never made that connection consciously before, but it makes sense. At times, I definitely feel the weight of the expectation that my whole life is in a slow decline now that I'm married. I worry (irrationally) that I won't be able to pursue my esoteric interests with as much passion or zeal as I did when I was "single." Then I remember that I wouldn't have married my husband if I had had to give up my passions in the process.
I'm not sure, on the whole, many people getting married give a lot of thought to what they really want their marriage (or their wedding) to be. I think it is easier, *in the short-term*, to accept the societal idea of marriage than to tear it down and build your own marriage from scratch. Or perhaps you resign yourself to the ball-and-chain mentality to keep from taking responsibility for not living your passions.
Just some thoughts…
November 24, 2009 7:47 pm
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While I definitely think that there is a connection between the ideas of your wedding day being the best day of your life and wives/mothers putting everyone before themselves, what I wonder is how they came to be connected. It seems like the pressure for married women to put their husbands and children before themselves has been around forever, while the pressure for weddings to be like a fairy tale come true is much more recent. Where did this idea that your wedding is the best day of your life start? And isn't it kind of weird that this pressure has evolved in a time when the feminist movement has made such strides toward equality for women? I'm just thinking outloud here and have no idea if there is any real correlation between the feminist movement and the development of the concept that women must be princess-esque on their wedding days, but I think this is a really interesting topic and I hope we explore it more!
November 24, 2009 7:59 pm
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As always Meg, you've made an interesting point and I think what Lauren said particularly strikes a chord with me as a very creative person in a non-creative role.
One comment I'd like to respond to though was made by Vanessa:
"She'd rather spend her time/enegry/money on her kids & husband, making sure they're cared for first. And I dont think its a conscious effort at all. Its instinct. Most animals will go cold or hungry before they let their children suffer.
This image of motherhood is a big part of the problem. Not spending "her time/enegry/money on her kids & husband, making sure they're cared for first", is NOT tantamount to a woman letting her child go hungry. Like Peonies, I think this idea of perfection, particularly in motherhood, is scary and wrong. I agree that it's instinctual to want your children to survive, I don't think it's instinct that tells us that a $1500 pram is more important than personal training sessions…
If you look back over the history of humans, the idea of a stay-at-home, every-minute-of-the-day-watching-the-child mother is a short lived priveledged role. Step back a couple of hundred years and the only women who could afford not to work were rich enough not to have to care for their own children. Go back another few hundred and tribal societies saw women go out and work while the oldies looked after the kids.
Somewhere in the very recent past someone decided that children are neglected unless they have their own bedroom complete with PC, DVD, playstation and a mummy at their disposal 24/7. Sounds to me like the perfect way to breed a generation of narcisists…
November 24, 2009 9:20 pm
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Hmmm. Disagree. The women who had to work outside the home 200 years ago (1809) were mostly working class/poor and worked as servants or factory jobs.
It wasn't until the end of the 1800s that middle-class single women began taking jobs as shop clerks and such.
Of course, I'm being overly simple here.
This is interesting info about women working in the 19th century -
http://www.answers.com/topic/women-and-the-work-force
November 24, 2009 11:00 pm
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Anon, I'm not sure we do disagree, my point was not that women back then had dream jobs etc, just that they weren't stay at home mums. I agree that the women working outside the home (even in their own fields) were working class, but my understanding was that pre-industrialization most people fell into that category.
Anyway history aside the fact remains that children have grown and prospered for the majority of history without having mummy to hold their hand all day, without the helicopter parenting. Luckily thanks to lots of amazing women, we're now able to pursue any job we want. Definitely an improvement on 200 years ago. On the flip side though now were guilt-tripped into thinking we're neglecting our children by taking up those opportunities. I think that's crap.
November 25, 2009 1:45 am
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i think it rests on the evil fairytales we tell little girls (and eventually, the cheesy chick flicks we spoon-feed to big girls).
the goal of life is to catch a man. it's the end-all, be-all.
if you see the wedding this way… as the prime goal of existence, the happy ending before the credits… of course you'll overemphasize the day, and then let yourself fall apart thereafter. you've achieved your goal. you have no reason to take care of yourself, no subsequent dreams to pursue.
the truth is we need to acknowledge that becoming a mother requires a certain amount of self-sacrifice. but there are limits, and should be parameters. getting the kids ready in the morning is going to be a bigger priority than spending that extra time on your hair.
but how do you want to impact your children, and in turn, society?
i want any little girls i may have to grow up knowing that they can be attractive and put effort into the way they look, and still be intelligent, successful, professional, as well as compassionate, sacrificial and so on. i want them to know that a wedding isn't THE dream, but the beginning of a long succession of dreams and goals made easier (not inhibited!) by having a loving partner and family.
that will be part of my "self-sacrifice."
- a women's studies teacher
November 25, 2009 5:26 am
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@Nat
Indeed. David and I were discussing exactly that last night. We were also discussing how no one would ever imply that a man should/would/will want to give up his dreams and goals (whatever they are) when he has kids. In fact, since he's often expected to be the bread winner, he better *not* give up his dreams and goals, says society. But that's routinely the implication with woman. "Oh, you just don't know, once you have a baby they will be your everything." When historically they were *not* your everything. For most of history people had children A) because they didn't have a choice and B) for economic and survival reasons (an extra hand on the farm, someone to support you when you are old). That does not mean these children were not loved (of course they were) but they were not expected to be anyone's everything. And I would argue that is good for kids and parents, who both need to be self sufficient.
And finally, another thing we discussed last night is that somehow there is this idea that you have to choose between your children and your dreams – one has to be first. And if you pick your dreams, that means you won't meet your children's needs. But really, they are, and should be, two different spheres of your life. You have your kids, you love them, you take care of them, they are very very very important to you. Then, separately, you have your dreams and your goals, and that's an important part of who you are too. We don't do our kids a favor when we make less of ourselves. Our kids need our fullest, richest deepest selves, and that means ourselves with dreams and passions. They need roll models, not hovering parents (and NO, that doesn't mean I'm against staying at home with your kids. AT ALL. You can be a stay at home mom with rich dreams and goals, and a hovering working parent with none).
Now, that's a lot of talk about parenting for a non parenting blog, and a post not about parenting. It makes me a bit sad that this is still such a loaded issue for women that we can't even talk about being a wife without talking about being a mother, and have to fight for the idea of being allowed to still be ourselves. Sigh.
November 25, 2009 7:16 am
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Nat, well, I do think we really do disagee.
I should have included in my post that most married women in the 1800's still didn't work outside the home back then, dream job or not.
The ones working outside the home were usually single.
If you look at the web site I posted, once a woman was married, if she still needed to earn money, she did it from home – having a cottage industry on the side or taking in boarders.
Back then, most families produced a lot of their own goods and sold the excess, and married women were very involved with that.
So they were still home to hold their children's hand. There really were very few married women with children working outside the home. They were able to work at their cottage industries and still be home to supervise their children.
Interestingly, whenever they have done studies on modern mothers, they often find that mothers with part-time jobs are happier than mothers with no jobs or mothers with full-time jobs.
Perhaps the ones with part-time jobs really do achieve that elusive balance we all want.
November 25, 2009 8:50 am
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Sadly, I'm shutting comments on this. We're going to have to find a way to talk about being wives without fighting about if Stay At Home Moms or Working Moms are better. Because you know what? BOTH ARE GREAT. The kind of motherhood that works for you is up to you and your partner to figure out. The point is what kind of people we are and what kind of wives we want to be.
Being a wife is a different thing from being a mother. And that's the whole point.
I will probably do a post reminding everyone of this, but I will not host these discussions unless we're both civial and respectful. Not just fighting to be right.
November 25, 2009 9:52 am
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