While we're on the topic of the (frankly horrific and emotionally impoverishing) wedding/marriage sexism directed towards men, can we talk about this email that made me snarf water through my nose?
Meg,
While we're reclaiming the idea of wife, could we make sure we get the right job description for it? A wife is not a husband trainer. Yet more than once since our wedding in November I've been asked if I've trained my husband yet. The last time was in his presence and he answered by saying that I already liked how he did things, that's why I married him. Yes! That's it exactly.
Thanks.
Lisa
Because seriously. We've been watching a lot of HGTV recently (you get this with your newlywed status, I didn't even know it existed pre-wedding) and the concept of the 'man cave' keeps coming up on every show. And everytime I yell at the TV "What the m*ther f*cking f*ck with the MAN CAVE already? He only gets ONE ROOM???" And David shakes his head and sighs. Because you know, David's man cave is the kitchen... and also the rest of the house, since he cares as much about it as I do.
So since these horrible conversations all seem to come from generally the same people/ line of societal discourse, in some horrible way, it makes sense. Because if someone told you getting married meant you were going to get trained, and then given only one room in the house, and then your wife would be in charge of your entire social calendar... wouldn't you think getting married was a mistake? I effing would.
So here is to more men who cook and decorate and are allowed in all rooms of the house and keep their own calendar and can dress themselves and can express a range of emotions and can change a diaper without fear and can hold up their end of cocktail party conversation and don't let their (super bossy) wives boss them around. Because THOSE guys are the marrying type.
UPDATE: I'm sort of shocked that I'm having to post this disclaimer... but... I'm NOT saying that partners shouldn't have personal spaces or hobby rooms in their homes (um, obviously). I'm talking about sexist terms, and the way we culturally discuss marriage and gender roles. I'm talking about the way wives are somehow viewed as being in control of the household (for better or worse), while husbands are shuttled off to a back room somewhere. So lets all relax a bit, go to our respective hobby rooms, and breath deeply.
PS This is Part I, because somehow I have the sneaking suspicion that there are lots of other things wives are not... and we'll figure them out.
agreed Cupcake.
I had a long relationship before my current forever relationship… and my ex let me walk all over him and I always got my way. I never respected him, and never saw myself spending forever with him. When I got together with my current forever-man, we had the push and pull and respect for each other. I valued that he didn't let me (or really, want me to) boss him around.
I didn't want to always be in charge just as much as I wouldn't put up with a man who was insistant on his way.
Though when it came to nesting our forever home, I pretty much get the say, since I'm a) the only one who actually cares and b) the only one who will do it. HOWEVER, he is fine with this because he knows I respect him enough to choose things we BOTH like. ahhh partnership!
February 4, 2010 2:18 pm
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I have to defend the idea of the man cave, because Owen is a hobbyist and an artist, and his helmets, weapons, miniatures, paints, tools and everything else he needs just pile up in and spill out of every free space in the house. We both wish we had a garage, so he would have a place to keep his hobby stuff and work on it and we could still have a clean, organized house.
February 4, 2010 2:27 pm
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So true. I admit he has habits that I aren't the best fun but I can't train him to be different and I wouldn't want to because when you change the bad you change the good too.
I with others on this one the "man cave" situation comes about because some people don't know how to give get other enough space or alone time so they set up separate rooms/caves in order to get that space. I glad my partner an I don't NEED one we have no room in our little apartment. If it is because people haven't found a way to combine/live with each others personal taste – its very sad, a persons style is an expression of who they are and since we love them shouldn't we want to see that personality reflected in the house.
My partner dreams of a cave though not so much for only men but he dreams of a room filled with computer games, big screen TVs and huge stereo equipment that I couldn't care less about, I guess if he was to ever get that I wouldn't go into that room much. And I would love a room to paint and read and make things.
February 4, 2010 3:33 pm
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@ HeatherN I don't think meg is making a judgment about anyone that needs to learn from his/her partner. Lord knows my fiance and I have learned a LOT from each other. But I think in media there is this portrayal that women settle for a man because they just need to get married and then we try to make whatever man we end up with exactly how we want him.
@Michele- I'm not saying you shouldn't love a man who isn't handy…just saying that not all men are inept the way "everybody loves raymond" and Direct TV commercials would have us think.
As for the man cave….coming from someone that has worked on HGTV shows for the last 3+ years…the man cave has a connotation for SURE! There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a room for your hobbies or for a specific activity…and more power to you if you can afford it!! But the man cave portrayed in a lot of these design shows is where the man gets to be "a man". Where he can scratch his crotch, drink beer and watch football with his buddies and where all his "guy stuff" is supposed to go so the rest of the house can be designed in flowers and lace just like all women want. Bleh. Personally I like drinking beer and watching football with my guy….but he sure would love a room for all his guitars and amps…too bad we only have 2 bedrooms.
February 4, 2010 4:33 pm
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I actually think that the "train him" idea comes with the brides that marry their husbands without having lived with them, which for the record, I think is a huge mistake. It is completely stupid to walk into a marriage with open eyes thinking "I can change him." Would we really want to marry someone who wants to change us? Of course not.
As far as the man cave goes: when we first moved into our house almost two years ago (with a roommate who we still live with now, post wedding) G asked me if I wanted to decorate the bedroom or the office. I chose bedroom. Although I wish we had enough room for us to both have our separate offices, we make do. And for a while we joked that it was his "masturbatorium" as in Augusten Burroughs book Running with Scissors.
February 4, 2010 4:57 pm
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@HeatherN
Too far? Nah. An extreme difference of opinion from yours? Yeah.
I think the biggest point is both phrases are indicative of a sexist mindset that is just not cool. And the more that the mindset is pointed out, the more aware of it you are and the more you can fight it, if you choose to.
This is how I see APW. A Practical Wedding is like that best friend who meets you at the bar after work and carefully listens to your woes. And then, after you're done, APW leans across the table and says "Eff the bitches."
No, I can't, you protest and then APW spends the next hour giving you an impassioned opinion that not only empowers you but makes a very good case for effing the bitches, and possibly setting them on fire.
Now you either leave that discussion screaming, "EFF THE BITCHES!!!" as you grab your pitchfork, or you may disagree and leave and do nothing. Or, most likely, you leave not screaming, but also not taking shit from anyone.
And APW is cool with that too, but still thinks you shoulf eff the bitches.
February 4, 2010 5:16 pm
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@Sera,
As a bride who did not live with her husband before getting married but still had her eyes opened enough to know that I was not going to be training my husband in any way, getting married without living with someone is not a huge mistake. Thousands do it all the time. Heck, people get married in arranged marriages where they haven't even dated before marriage! Would you then say it's a mistake to move in with someone without living with them first?
But marriage is between two individuals, not between a woman and a lump of clay she can shape into anything she wants.
Most people say the "husband training" comments as a joke or a bit tongue-in-cheek. But jokes are funny because they contain a piece of truth in them. Listening to these "jokes" for too long, you internalize the truths they are based on.
February 4, 2010 5:31 pm
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@Lyssachelle Do you have your own blog? I just realized that when I find myself scanning the comments, I tend to just look for yours & Meg's. Yay for your comments! ;)
February 4, 2010 5:48 pm
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@brendalynn
I KNOW! She totally needs one. She sends hilarious emails too.
February 4, 2010 5:49 pm
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Hummm…
My future hubby is a wonderful man. Though he tends to be the "stereotypical" type of man that so many of you seem to role your eyes at.
He can't cook (ummm…or prefers not to cook?) and instead will eat mountains of cereal and string cheese for dinner. He totally sucks at cleaning – as in he doesn't notice when things are gross and need a good scrub down. He is totally inept at "handywork" and sucks at keeping a balanced checkbook. And his idea of decorating are bobbleheads and sports figurines in the bookcases and phathead stickers on the wall of his sports heros. He's awkwardly quiet around people he doesn't know – but is the LIFE of the party with our friends.
He is a dude.
He wants a mancave.
I know I won't change a damn thing about him…there are a few things I probably would want to change…but he is who his is. And I fell in love with him fully.
And I can't fucking wait until he gets his damn mancave.
(or masterbatorium – because that's hilarious.)
February 4, 2010 6:40 pm
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Reminds me of the "your wife let you out?" comments. We get those.
February 4, 2010 6:43 pm
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Um. You can be a man and cook and care about decorating.
But that's not really the point. The point is that it's wonderful for men to have ALL KINDS of skills – cooking or not cooking. The point is that they don't need to be trained, that we are equal partners in this. The point isn't really the man cave… it's that equal partners share a home, however they divide the rooms.
February 4, 2010 6:44 pm
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Interestingly, no one ever says to me "your husband let you out?" Hmmm.
February 4, 2010 6:49 pm
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Okay – I'm going to take the unpopular stance of acknowledging that I'm trying to "train"/"change" my SO.
He could not be more loving, more supportive, or a more emotionally-invested partner–he's awesome, (to repeat a phrase used often in this thread)that's why I'm marrying him.
BUT, if it were up to him, we would live in *squalor*. So, yes, I'm trying to "train" him to do laundry once a week or at least before it's overflowed the hamper…and the spare hamper; to put dirty dishes in the dishwasher, not on the floor next to the couch; to hang up his clothes, not wad them up on a chair; etc, etc. And, he is probably trying to "train" me to be more relaxed about cleanliness around the house. We both make progress from time to time.
Is it morally-wrong / anti-feminist / anti-equality-in-marriage / old-fashioned to work toward a shared standard? I've always thought this is what the "have you trained him yet" questions referred to.
February 4, 2010 7:27 pm
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Ok guys. It's been… unexpectedly feisty today. Man Caves? Who knew they were such a lightning rod of controversy? Huh.
But we're done with this one for now. As ever, there will be more things to passionately debate… next week.
February 4, 2010 8:09 pm
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