Awhile back, the smart and thoughtful Liz (you'll remember her wedding and her post on self catering a desert reception) mentioned in East Side Bride's comments that she'd waited to have sex till her wedding night. And I was surprised. Not surprised because I don't know people who have waited (I know lots), but surprised because that didn't quite fit in with my mental file of what I knew of Liz. And if I've learned one thing in my thirty years of life, it is that when someone really surprises you with a belief, you should ask them about it. Because they will *always* have something really thoughtful to say, because guess what? If they are stepping out of what you expect from them, they've really thought it through, and they will make you look at your own decisions in a new light. So, right away I wanted to get a drink with Liz and get her to dish.... but.... I don't know Liz in real life (yet)..... and I'm actually not that nosy. So. When Liz popped up in the comments on APW and offered to write a post about it, I insisted that she do it now, now, now.
Before we get into this, I want to state, for the record, that I have really complicated feelings on this subject. As much as readers like to regularly accuse me of spending my life in a liberal bubble, that couldn't be further from the truth. I (we - David and I grew up in the same town) grew up in a really conservative area, and the vast majority of my counterparts in high school gave lip service to waiting till they were married to have sex. What ended up playing out was less pleasant. As sex became THE forbidden fruit, people became more and more focused on it. We saw a lot of our friends pregnant at 16, and a lot of our friends married at 18. Most of the time, things didn't end well. Goodness knows that can happen when you're not waiting, and that waiting can be a wonderful thing, but for us, growing up? It didn't always play out that way. So, given my long and personal life experiences with this, it's a complicated subject for me. Not bad complicated, just complicated.
So of course I was dying to discuss all this with Liz, and (no surprise here) I was thrilled and fascinated by what Liz wrote. She wrote a WHOLE lot of things I agree with, but modern women are not supposed to say. She gave really good advice to people who are choosing to wait (and frankly, good advice on this subject is hard to come by). She wrote things that made me think, and laugh. Best, her story had a happy ending. For me, personally, that's redemptive and amazing. So, here is Liz, on waiting to get laid. Because Liz is awesome, she told me, "I'll try not to make it TOO raunchy." And she almost succeeded.
....
I’m so excited and nervous about writing this post. After I suggested it, I tried to chicken out, but Meg is a persuasive lady (have you noticed?). When people would find out that I was a virgin, or that Josh and I weren’t sleeping together (I know, right? How does that even come up in conversation? I can’t for the life of me remember…) I was met with a ton of questions/warnings. You guys think unrequested wedding advice is crossing the line? Try sex advice. Yeah. Here are some of the things I heard which turned out to be very untrue… (and, uh, sorry in advance. I really like lists and bullet points.)
1. Waiting puts a lot of pressure on your wedding night. False. Well, ok. I could see how this could be the case for some. Josh and I sorta worried about it. We also knew that we'd probably be exhausted, maybe grumpy, maybe a leetle sloshed after the wedding. So Josh suggested we just have no expectations for the wedding night- we would have all week of our honeymoon to have sex. Let's not rush and cram it into that night. I gotta say, this definitely removed that pressure of The Sex Time. It was genius. I would really advise anyone else who’s waiting to set this standard- not just to remove the pressure, but so that you can ease into getting to know one another’s bodies (even if that sounds like a middle school health class video). Josh had never seen me in less than a bathing suit, and touched anything between my neck and my knees before we got married. “Normal” couples move gradually, right? You don’t just tear around all of the bases in one night (usually). Same can go for Waiters (as in those-that-wait… not those-that-serve-at-restaurants).
2. It’s gonna be awkward. Umm. No. Josh and I were already experts at enjoying spending time together- and believe it or not, we pretty much already knew the basics of, um, what goes where... I think this is probably only true for people who expect it to be like movie sex, and then try to force some fake, sultry, smoky crap. One of the APW brides once suggested that the wedding day be treated like any other day- just be yourself. Laugh if something’s funny. Don’t put on some false self. Same is so very true for sex, isn’t it? It’s much more of an intimate moment if it’s two people, totally exposed and being themselves together.
3. You need practice. Meh. Not really. Like I said above, we kinda figured out how things work. Beyond that, sure, sex gets better the more you do it. But trust me, the first night wasn't awful.
4. You need to know if you’re compatible/if he’s “the one.” I hafta wonder at using sex as a barometer for that sort of thing. And it's kind of like kissing, isn't it? Your first kiss may or may not be awesome, but you get better at kissing as you kiss each other more. You become attune to one another. Whether or not he's awesome in bed in the first round doesn't determine how good you can be together- and I'm guessing if your chemistry is fantastic enough that you wanna marry the guy, you'll do just fine. (Also, who do I have him to compare to…? It’s the best sex I’ve ever had.)
5. So you think you’ll go to hell if you have sex? Not even close.
So if that’s not why I waited, then why, right? If not to avoid the fiery pits of hell, what could it be?
1. Sex effs with your mind. Honestly. Who can say that having sex has made them more capable of thinking clearly and making good decisions? It complicates things.
2. Sex links people. I don’t know how to put this in a forward-thinking, logical-sounding way. But, sex ties people together in this near-mystical way, doesn’t it? How many of us have clung to no-good-people because of how attached we felt as a result of being physical with them (or is that just me)*? This directly ties into the above- it just complicates things.
3. Finding the “right” person. This one’s the key, obv. There’s something so undeniably romantic about having only had sex with just one person. Finding the right person to sleep with or marry- that takes time. And clear-headed thought. So these folks who say they’re “waiting” to have sex, and then hurry up and get married because they can’t keep it in their pants any longer- that kind of defeats the purpose, to me. Sex is important. Take your time in figuring out who you want to be there to share that experience.
4. Self control. I probably couldn’t tell you how much respect I have for Josh as a result of the self-control he displayed in the 3 years we dated. Did I know he wanted to do it? Hell yeah- sometimes it’s obvious, if youknowwhatI’msayin. But his commitment to waiting was a sign of his love for me… not in the cheesy, “true love waits” sense. But in the sense that setting a good foundation for our marriage was more important to him than a physiological impulse (and I’m not saying it wasn’t a struggle for me… have I TOLD you how hot this man is?). Being able to control your downstairs bits demonstrates the kind of maturity necessary to pick a spouse… ya dig?
5. Growing together. Getting used to doing it is one more intense way in which we’re growing together. I get to experience this whole new world, and I get to have a husband by my side as I figure it out. Awesome.
6. Romance. Can I just reiterate how amazingly romantic I think it is? It’s like Heloise and Abelard. Doesn’t the fact that they couldn’t even touch each other almost confirm for you that their love was the deepest kind?**
Because we were waiting, we needed to sort of… set ourselves up for success. Spending 3 years with a sexy man and not touching him. That, um, takes work.
1. Short engagement. Know how I just told you not to rush into getting married just to have sex? Yeah. This is different. Once you decide that you do want to get married, don’t set some 2 year long engagement. That, my friends, is called TORTURE. “Yay, we’re going to have sex together! …but NOT YET.” Womp womp.
2. Lots of sex talks. I think we probably talked about sex pre-marriage more than people who aren’t waiting. Sex is kind of a big chunk of married life… if we’re already discussing if we want to have kids and where we want to live, it only makes sense to talk about what sex is gonna be like. (there are pretty clear limits to this… “Oh, baby, I can’t wait to do this to your that…” not really the best route to go if you plan on waiting.) We talked about likes and dislikes. I know you’re wondering how I could know what I like or not, since I’ve never tried. I think there are some things you don’t need to experience to know. For example, I don’t need to try having Josh choke me while he’s doing his thing to know that I’m not a fan of the “play rape” sex. Nope.
3. More sex talks. We also set parameters and discussed expectations. If there’s anything that’s detrimental to a relationship, it’s unvoiced expectations. I told him what I expected sex to be like, what I was hoping for, and he did the same. There was nothing that was more healthy for our sex-life… and I would recommend it for everyone, married or not, waiting or not.
And now. We’re married. And doing it. And life is good. Some of the important things I’ve gleaned through our ongoing learning process include...
1. Recognizing that sex is a delicate thing. It’s one part of our lives that impacts so much else. If we haven’t had sex in awhile, you can probably tell by the way we talk to and treat each other- that’s not an old cliché, I think everyone would agree it’s true. It’s the physical representation of everything that marriage means to us- so if the sex is bad, something’s off here. What do I mean by that? In sex, we’re entirely vulnerable and exposed, flaws and all- and yet when we look at each other, we’re overwhelmingly attracted (isn’t that a beautiful idea?). Sex at its healthiest is when two people are entirely focused on one another- sex isn’t about physical urges (not entirely at least) or body parts… it’s about paying attention to one another’s wants in a very personal and special way. Because of this, sex is that place in marriage where we have the most propensity to appreciate one another, and the largest capacity to hurt one another. It’s so, so easy to feel slighted or ignored or manipulated or unfulfilled or mistreated in sex. It’s a very delicate matter.
2. Open honesty. If he wants it, he needs to tell me. If I feel like he’s going at it in a roundabout way, I feel manipulated. (How many of us have dated guys with little manipulating ways of conning us into sex? “But it can do serious damage if I don’t…”) If I don’t want it, I need to tell him. If we both have the understanding that the other person is going to be honest without insult, there’s no need to feel guilty or try to hint. This kind of honesty may sound unsexy (“Hey- wanna do it tonight?” versus donning lingerie and sprawling across the bed), but I recognize that it’s just a stage in learning about each other. Like all other things in our relationship, if we do it enough, I’ll get to a point where I can (mostly) intuit what’s going on. But even then, communication is going to be so essential. Isn’t it with everything in marriage?
3. Team spirit. Like I said above, sex in its purest form is not about what I get out of it, but what I can do for the other person. (If he’s spending all of his energy trying to please me, and I’m exerting all of mine to try to please him… we both end up… satisfied, I guess? Can I say that, Meg?***) So sometimes, I need to take one for the team and just do it when I don’t feel like it. Sounds tres unsexy, no? But if that’s what sex is about at its core (spending all of my energy for what he wants), then I’m definitely in the spirit. (FYI: “I’ll do whatever you want me to, baby” is NOT unsexy.) Other times, when I have a migraine or am in a bad mood, he can lovingly (without being begrudging) drop it. (we’ve talked on here about how the roles are sometimes reversed- I’m not trying to catalogue or generalize, just speaking from my own experience)
So um. There you have it. Probably the most awkward post on APW yet. I’m not sure exactly how to wrap it up- maybe, “Go have some great sex, you guys!” I know you’re thinking, “Wait a second. You were a virgin until 6 months ago. How are YOU going to tell ME how to have great sex, amateur?” I can't. But I can share what I’ve learned on a now-unconventional and bumpy road. And hoping to help Meg open the floor for others to do the same. Ready? GO.
....
And before I open the comments, I'm going to remind EVERYONE to stay civil and not judge each other. Both Liz and I shared some personal thoughts, ideas, and experiences here. Neither of our ideas or life experiences have to be shared by you, but the should be respected (and if you see them not being respected, report those comments please). I'm going to take it a step farther and say, if you're talking about your personal experience, try not to universalize. Waiting, not waiting, or heck, waiting till after marriage for polyamory was right for you? RAD. Just don't tell us we *all* need to do it.
And now, let's talk about sex (baby).
*Not just you, Liz.
**Liz asked me if this was cheesy, and I was like, "Yesss... a little. But you can say it anyway.)
*** Yes.
What a lovely, thoughtful post, stuffed to the gills with good advice.
I honestly did not wait, and I honestly do not regret not waiting – with a few mild exceptions (no deep regrets), I am OK with what I’ve done and who I’ve done it with. If anything, the not-really-a-deep-loving-bond type of relations helped me to cherish the kind that does come with, and help create and strengthen, a deep, loving bond. I suppose I could have learned to be the kind of girl who didn’t need to try it out before deciding to have high standards, but it didn’t work out that way and I’m fine with it. I do envy those who did not do it before deciding they should wait to do it – I get the feeling I’d just look back and think “wish I had” as opposed to “happy I didn’t”. But you never know. Maybe that’s not true at all.
My FH and I live together now and…I guess it just seemed right to not wait, so we didn’t. If anything I think that did in fact help me make clearer decisions. I already had the just-like-married life with my FH, so I had the mental luxury of considering marriage as something completely removed from that: instead of “do I want to live with/have sex with him” I could think of it as “do I want to take what we have and make it legal and binding and permanent and all those scary words?” Thinking of it that way, I felt, was freeing. (I’d ask how he felt about it, but he’s asleep now).
This is the one place where I will mildly and softly disagree with the article: “Who can say that having sex has made them more capable of thinking clearly and making good decisions? It complicates things.” Well, I can say that. I think if I’d waited, I might not have considered marriage so thoughtfully, because my mind would be clouded with “but I wanna have SEX! NOW!!11!” and I would have been itching to marry long before I was actually ready to do so…it does take a lot of self-control to keep mental mastery of your downstairs bits and still make levelheaded decisions, but honestly I don’t think it would have worked that way for me. Maybe I don’t have that self control, in that way. I would have made very rash decisions indeed – I would not have married any of the partners I had before my FH, but our relationship (that is, my and my FH’s) was a long time in evolving from acquaintances to friends to best friends to lovers and I do believe it needed the time it took to get there, because we needed to mature as people (we met when we were 18. We will both be just about 30 when we get married. 12 years, man). If I we had jumped into marriage earlier, it’s not that we wouldn’t have been just as right for each other then as we are now…but we wouldn’t have been emotionally ready for marriage, from a youth-and-maturity standpoint. Now, we feel we are.
But, you know, that’s just a personal thing. It won’t be true for everyone, just how it worked for me. And otherwise, it is really quite refreshing to come across good, not-so-religious thoughts on this topic, and treating it like the open and realistic subject it is, not some hushed taboo. The great thing about feminism is that we now have the right to do what we want with our bodies, and if for some women that means waiting until marriage for their own, personal and very valid reasons – then kudos.
June 3, 2010 9:39 am
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If I could Exactly this a hundred times I would! I totally feel the same way about my relationship with my FH. Since we are “basically married” (or at least feel that way), we’ve considered marriage with a much more detached perspective… if that makes any sense. It’s definitely liberating.
June 3, 2010 10:57 am
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I totally agree with your disagreement that having sex cannot in some cases make you think more clearly and make better decisions. For me, my sexual experiences with others prior to my husband and then with my husband when we were dating helped me to realize and appreciate more fully things about my husband that were special and wonderful and amazing, things that are present in all of the ways he is with me and our relationship, but that were first most striking to me in our sex life (that I feel I recognized as such because I could contrast to my sex life with others before him). And I can say that my sexual intimacy with others has similarly illuminated things about those relationships. There are definitely guys in my past I would have quit seeing, or let go of emotionally, more quickly if I hadn’t felt somewhat bound up with them because of the sexual intimacy we had shared. Just to say that I have been in both places – some where sex clouded the judgment I would otherwise have had in a negative way and some where sex helped my judgment in seeing how great or not great a guy/relationship was.
June 3, 2010 12:57 pm
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I agree, but from a different way (if that makes sense).
For guys I’ve been with in the past, I can name at least two that I stopped seeing before I otherwise would have BECAUSE we slept together.
If we hadn’t, my mind would have been boggled with “I wanna have sex! Should we have sex? Are we close/intimate/loving enough now to have sex? Sex! Sexy sex sex!” and I would have stuck around longer, trying to figure out whether or not our relationship was ‘deep’ or ‘intimate’ enough (because let’s face it, people say “you know when you know” but in some cases, you don’t. It took 9 years of friendship for my fiance and I to figure out at the same time that we had that connection. I guess we’re just slow.) Sleeping together sort of confirmed what I knew in my gut: that no, “this is not the right person”, that true intimacy was lacking, and it was best to look elsewhere. I am not saying we slept together and then I dumped them, I am saying that after our relationship had reached that level, I came to realize things I might have taken a lot longer to figure out, just because there was something “not right” with the physical part of the relationship.
June 3, 2010 6:47 pm
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Love you Liz. As always, you are inspiring and refreshing.
June 3, 2010 9:46 am
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““Normal” couples move gradually, right? You don’t just tear around all of the bases in one night (usually)”
AMEN. Growing up, this terrified me. I thought ‘so I’m supposed to be totally chaste and not do anything, and then all of a sudden anything goes we do everything all in one night?!’ It terrified me and made me dread the wedding idea because having all that attention of “ooooo, sexy times for them tonight finally!” on me was just, well, ick. I didn’t want to go all around the bases with someone all in one night. Not judging those who do, but for me….that was something that made me uncomfortable, and that’s what was sold to me in my religious upbringing as The Way Things Are Done. Period.
It’s part of the reason I fell away from religion really, because I kept getting that idea marketed to me, and it made me more and more and more uncomfortable. There are ***many*** other reasons why I fell away from religion, but that definitely played a role.
So I just wanted to thank you for bringing it up. I really respect your approach to this article, because it’s so dang reasonable! :) I didn’t wait, but I absolutely agree with what you’re saying here.
June 3, 2010 9:54 am
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I just got back from my honeymoon – which was also the beginning of what I expect to be an amazing sex life – and was thrilled to see this thoughtful post. I initially decided to wait for religious reasons, but let’s be honest, it’s really hard to wait if you don’t see any concrete benefits to it. Luckily, I find that God generally doesn’t tell us to do something (or not do it) just to make our lives difficult – it turns out that waiting was incredibly beneficial for our relationship, for many of the reasons Liz discussed. (I’m totally not saying everyone has to wait – just that it was a great thing for us.) In our relationship, the most obvious benefit thus far has been in our communication skills. (Living across the country from each other for three years is also a great way to improve communication, fyi, though I can’t say I recommend it.) Also, when you’re busy not having sex, you’ve got to find other ways of showing your love. Now that we’re married, sex is a very important part of that repertoire, but it will never be our only way of showing affection or serving the other person, and I’m thankful that we had the time to practice non-sexual lovin’.
June 3, 2010 10:00 am
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Not that I have great hopes that everyone will make it this far down in the comments, but: I haven’t seen anyone articulate what my own underlying reason for having lots of sex before marriage (or engagement, or even, in many cases, serious relationships) was. Which is that I never thought it was particularly likely that I would get married, or have an equivalently stable partnership. I thought of myself as someone who was likely to be single for most of my life. I was wrong, but I didn’t know that when I was twenty, and I didn’t want to forswear sex in the absence of such partnerships, so waiting wasn’t really an option. I’m curious if anyone else has had a similar experience, or what others think about the implicit connection between these decisions and the projection of your life than your younger self had.
June 3, 2010 10:03 am
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Whew – I made it! :-)
And I read your post and seriously went – “YES!” out loud. In my office.
Saving myself for marriage was never on my life radar screen, even though the religion I’d been raised in and family I grew up with firmly preached abstinence until marriage. Aside from wanting to get out of the church (which I did at age 18), I wasn’t a big fan of staying a virgin until I married. And heck – I wasn’t sold on the idea of marriage either. Had no hopes or dreams for it. I thought a nice, steady relationship somewhere down the road (like, in my 40s or when I was “old”), after I’d had some “fun” was a good goal, but marriage? Nuh-uh.
So: let’s just say I went out there an enjoyed life. A lot. And I’ve no regrets about that. And then one day met a fabulous guy, and guess what – I married him. I’ve got heaps of respect for those that choose to wait, because obviously – they have their reasons. Just like I’ve heaps of respect for those that co-habitate or take a few trips ’round the block (so to speak), because we’ve got our reasons for that too.
I’m not making much sense here, probably and have lost my point… but I certainly appreciate this post and ALL of the comments here. That’s what I really wanted to say.
Side note: Liz’s post is wonderfully refreshing, courageous and so well- written (truly – it takes guts to write about sex, and she did so in such a candid, open and non-judgemental way). So – kudos Liz and thank you so much for sharing.
P.S. I just went back and looked at Liz’s grad post and couldn’t help but think: “Holy smokes – they’re both effing beautiful! How did they keep their hands to themselves!!??!” LOL ;)
June 3, 2010 11:31 am
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bahahaha. thanks! ;)
June 3, 2010 9:32 pm
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Sarabeth,
I’m with you. I had sex because it was on my checklist of stuff adults do, not because I was really interested in sex, or the boy I had sex with (at 18). I just knew going to college as a virgin was lame; and I’d spent my entire life trying not to be lame.
Later in life, I discovered that I had probably been sexually abused as a young child, and had definitely had some “weird” touchings happen as a teen. My decision, subconsciously, was to dismiss my body entirely and lead with my head- I was smart, loved books, and not very coordinated…so who needs a body? This also made me very ok with not being a woman who got married, or with needing to love the men I had sex with.
With my FH, we were truly friends first, for a long time (for me- a semester is forever), and I had no idea he even “cared” for me, much less wanted to be as intimate as we are today. So in a way, we waited, and it was the first experience I had even had with that, or with talking about sex first, or anything. It hasn’t guaranteed us a great sex life (see my comment above), but it also has allowed me to revisit my previous unconscious reactions, and realize, like someone said above, that this is MY peculiar path from 12 to 50, and that I don’t have to follow anyone else’s narratives except my own. It can’t even be a narrative until the moment is past, anyway, so why would I depend on someone else’s life to dictate to me, how I live mine?
To the waiters, understand, you have no idea yet whether, ultimately, this was the “best” overall decision for you. To those of us who practiced, neither do we, and it’s too late to take back the past. All we can do is support each other towards making the best decisions for ourselves, given the individual constellation of circumstances each of us face. I think the entire point of Liz’s post, besides her telling you HER story (not yours; for real, she doesn’t know all of us, waiters or practicers) is this: think about what you’re doing. Think about who you are. Talk to your partner. Talk to your partner. Talk to your partner. And if you make the “wrong” decision (for you)- make the Decision, right. I made the decisions of my past more right by learning what works for my current reality; therefore, while I felt “guilty” and “burdened” my my sexual past, I now no longer feel that has anything to do with my future, in the sense of WHO I am. It does, however, change what I choose to do. And if, God forbid, FH and I break up, the lessons I learned from our sexual life will accompany me. And I make it good.
Hope that said something useful.
June 3, 2010 11:57 am
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@Tamara, thank you so much for sharing this. I feel like there are so many people who experienced unfortunate events as a child, and yet this subject is still considered to be a “taboo” in our society. As a teenager, I also realized the same thing about myself, and this often made getting close to guys a very hard thing for me to do. I had wanted to wait to have a serious boyfriend before “doing it”, but at 19 I still hadn’t found anyone real, so I just decided to get it over with, so to speak. I think a part of me thought that I was never going to find anyone who really understood me anyway, so what was the point in waiting? I met a few more people… then I met my soon-to-be husband (somehow, fiance just doesn’t cut it anymore, 6 days before the wedding!) just before my 21st birthday. So, he wasn’t my first, and we didn’t wait… but, because of my past, having sex with someone I actually cared about deeply actually proved to be a lot harder and more emotionally difficult for me than having “meaningless” sex. Probably because I worried that he would abandon me, like so many of the other men in my life had before him. He didn’t. I have to say that I was probably not the easiest person to deal with at first, and it took me a while to really open up (both emotionally & sexually). He was there, and he didn’t run away. I think that is why I knew almost immediately that he was a special person, and that if things worked out, we would be together. Less frequently, but still sometimes, I’ll have issues [during]. So, talking about sex has just become part of our relationship. Because we have to, and it’s important to. Even if you’re not dealing with any intense issues like I am, it’s still important to talk about sex. I’m not going to lie and say that it’s now super easy for us to talk about it; it’s not, it can be extremely hard and awkward at times. But at the same time, it’s so necessary.
June 6, 2010 12:40 pm
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Oh, I’d say 90% of APW readers are way-pro pre-marital sex. I think that’s assumed to be the default, and why it’s not really being discussed in these comments. Since that *is* the APW reader baseline, I thought it would be more interesting to kick off sex discussions with the amazing Liz. I’m contrary like that.
June 3, 2010 5:58 pm
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Liz, you’re my heroine. Great post, thank you for your thoughtfulness… and of course, thanks Meg for inviting it and sharing it with all of us. You ladies are amazing.
I read a really intense article (Love, Actually: How girls reluctantly endure the hookup culture) in the June 2010 Atlantic Monthly magazine that just arrived at my house a few days ago, where Caitlin Flanagan talks about how teen girls today are struggling with the combo of sexual freedom fought for by their mothers and the impulses of hormonal young men and women, which don’t always lead them to the best experiences. I guess I think that this piece that Liz wrote is a nice antidote to that struggle and is something I wish all young women everywhere would read before they make these important decisions. Because there are things that you can’t take back, and there is beauty in waiting, whether it’s for days or weeks or til you’re married.
And Liz, thanks for reminding me (with my husband for almost 6 years now) that sex should be more about giving than receiving, just like all things marriage. That is also an important reminder for a happy marriage. So much good stuff goes on here!! Ok, blissing out on you guys, off to work!
June 3, 2010 10:09 am
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I LOVE this post even though we didn’t wait until marriage. This speaks to all couples, and I’m glad to see that someone decided to finally voice something about the wonderful world of marital sex. My fiancee is the only person I’ve ever had sex with, and while I’m a few down the line for him I think it’s amazing that I know what he likes, that our sex isn’t awkward because I haven’t had experience with others, and that we can communicate in a way that makes us both feel safe and loved. Whether you have sex with one person or many, I think the take home message is clear: communicate with your partner.
Oh, and the whole sex on the wedding night thing? Pretty sure that won’t be happening for us, if it does that’s great, but if it doesn’t we’re not going to sweat it. We have the rest of our lives to get frisky, not to mention the honeymoon!
June 3, 2010 11:03 am
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Can I just voice my loud PSA of: HAVE SEX ON YOUR WEDDING NIGHT! Seriously, people. Cut that party off 15 minutes early and make time. I think it is really important and validating and binding and amazing. You just made this huge huge commitment and had a huge huge party to celebrate. Now get laid already.
But I’m traditional like that.
June 3, 2010 6:00 pm
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Liz- wonderful, wonderful post. Thank you for being so honest about what led you to make the decisions you made and for opening up discussion on a touchy subject. Like most of the women on here I would also stress that communication is key. You can’t possibly expect to have a great sex life without honest communication and trust.
Meg- Thanks for continuously posting such great things!
June 3, 2010 11:06 am
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What an awesome topic. I always thought I would be a “waiter” but apparently my self control (and his) is lacking. I think what is also important about waiting is that both sides need to see the importance or at least the significance of waiting. If not, it would just be a lot of resentment on both parties. For whatever reason (and maybe just a lot of stereotypes) I find that if the guy wants to wait it seems better than the other way round. Girls see a guy wanting to wait as chilvarous. And guys see girls wanting to wait as prudes. But I am overgeneralizing. That is just what I notice.
June 3, 2010 11:30 am
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damn male-centric culture.
June 3, 2010 8:40 pm
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Not to put a damper on anything, but… Abelard and Heloise’s story is not actually that romantic. If you read their primary works, Abelard admits he raped Heloise: “Even when you were unwilling, resisted to the utmost of your power and tried to dissuade me, as yours was the weaker nature I often forced you to consent with threats and blows” (Abelard’s Signed Letter 4). So yeah, not the best example of a positive sexual environment.
And, as my $0.02, I completely disagree with “that’s what sex is about at its core (spending all of my energy for what he wants” and that “I’ll do whatever you want me to, baby” is NOT unsexy”– for me, sex is at its core about sharing myself with another intimately (not about each of us only giving each other pleasure but also reveling in our own) and I fundamentally oppose the idea that “doing whatever [he] wants me to” is “sexy”– that could not be further from the truth for me. Doing whatever *we* want is sexy, me asking him if what I want is okay and him enthusiastically agreeing (or vice versa) is sexy– NOT I’ll do whatever you want me to. That leaves open too many doors of uncomfortable acquiescence for me to be my mantra.
June 3, 2010 11:31 am
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A, I read that section much, much differently, and completely agreed with it. Sexual needs are complicated, and sometimes one partner needs something when the other doesn’t. In which case, a little bit of compromise is necessary. I certainly do it for my FF, because he needs it, and although not sexually fulfilling, it makes me feel good that I’ve done something for him. In that way, it’s always mutually satisfying. And that’s how I understood what Liz said about it.
As far as a he/me/we distinction (or an other person/yourself/the two of you, but that doesn’t have the same ring)… well…. that doesn’t really exist in sex, does it? But I think Liz was trying to say, that trying to please the other person results in pleasure for everyone. And that’s a really awesome, cool thing.
June 3, 2010 12:14 pm
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yes! and I would add to that, I don’t think Liz meant that it was Only about your partners needs, it’s about both partners, but if both are saying “I’ll do whatever you want” it has the same result as your asking your partner for something and he agrees and vice versa. it’s of course absolutely necessary that both partners would approach it that way, and I would hope understood that neither partner would ask for something which would be uncomfortable for the other to do. which gets back to how important communication is.
June 3, 2010 12:36 pm
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I’m a big fan of Dan Savage’s “Good Giving and Game” mantra. Sometimes being a good partner is trying something you’re not that into for your partner, and seeing how it goes. (And this is Dan Savage, so he’s totally including things like getting tied up in a furry suit.) So yes, you should always be on board before something happens, and yes you should always always be communicating clearly, and YES you should have a safe word.* But I’m backing up what Liz is saying – I think she’s saying something very sex positive and cool.
*PSA on safe words: when testing your limits, even if it’s just having sex for the first time? I think a safe word is amazing. Lets you let go and feel protected.
June 3, 2010 6:05 pm
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I just had to also say that safe words are great. At first it feels weird, but they really do help you to be safe with each other (as well as taking the phrase “safe sex” to a whole new meaning!).
June 3, 2010 8:45 pm
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ick to the stuff i overlooked about abelard. just ick. i’d only heard the legends and read a letter or two- never got the full story. ick.
what i said about sex being about giving was said in tandem with making it CLEAR what the boundaries are. josh would never ask me to do something i would not want, and if he did, i would have no qualms saying no.
but we can best revel in our own… satisfaction… if we’re both ardently trying to please one another.
June 3, 2010 8:43 pm
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I am a semi-lurker (I’ve only commented once :P ) but I follow this blog religiously because it is just so interesting. Although I am not waiting til marriage, I am waiting for sex, and I completely see the points that Liz makes here. Sex really does mess with your mind. Really, anything physical does a little bit. But sex is the ultimate physical act: you can’t get any closer than that to another person. I too grew up in a conservative family, surrounded by conservative people, and I have seen how this can negatively affect the sex aspect of life. Young girls get pregnant, people get married too young…I’m seeing this in an acquaintance of mine right now, who is 19 and pregnant, marrying a guy she’s only known for four months in July. Everything I have seen has convince me to wait til I truly love a man, am committed to him, and am physically/emotionally ready to have sex.
I’m still a virgin, even though I’ve been dating the love of my life for a year and a half now. And we have recently decided that we are ready to have sex. It was hard to wait for so long, but I knew that I wouldn’t want to have sex too soon. While I’m not waiting til marriage, I have no regrets for not waiting, because I know that I did wait for someone amazing and absolutely wonderful, who could vey well become my husband one day. I strongly encourage people not to take sex too lightly, and to wait until you have the love and respect you deserve to give yourself to a partner, whether it be before or after marriage.
June 3, 2010 11:34 am
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I grew up smashed between two cultures: my conservative family and their religious “True Love Waits” mantra which seemed insincere to me AND my wild high school friends, some of whom were having an*l by 16, which seemed scary and flippant to me. I floated between the two, soaking it all in, and discovering that the only person who could ultimately make the decision for me was me. I had sex with my first serious boyfriend in college who I dated a long time, and like Liz’s “Sex Links People” point, I ended up feeling trapped in a relationship that was manipulative, emotionally abusive and destructive of my identity. I didn’t get trapped ONLY BECAUSE of the sex, per se, but yes. It was a big factor. How can it not be?
I am now dating the man I’m going to marry, but I am still working through my old, failed relationship through my current sex life. My most vulnerable anxieties and unhealed wounds emerge in sex. I feel incredibly guilty about it – bringing my “baggage” into this new, lovely relationship. My fiance is so supportive and willing to talk through everything, and I feel myself healing every day. But I still often wish that I had waited – not until marriage necessarily – but until I was independent and strong enough to judge whether the man in question would build me up or tear me down.
June 3, 2010 11:35 am
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Lordy. Are we actually the same person and I just don’t know it?
I’m glad you’re both working on and dealing with this. Obviously, it doesn’t just get better as soon as you’re married. Well, maybe it does for some people. But we struggle a lot. And our sex life is not the best. At all. But sometimes it really is amazing and I have hope that it will keep getting better and better over time.
June 3, 2010 11:41 am
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Nervous about nothing, Meg :)
June 3, 2010 11:41 am
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This post meant so much to me, because of some sexual issues my guy and I are working out right now. We’re not Waiters (obviously), but I identified so much with what you said about what sex means in a committed relationship (i.e. a marriage).
June 3, 2010 11:52 am
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I just want to chime in and say that there is a slight waiting/ not waiting dichotomy emerging in the comments, and I’d argue it’s something of a false diachotomy. Our choices are not black and white, the are shades of grey. I don’t think one choice is better than the other, but that we have things to learn from each other.
June 3, 2010 12:03 pm
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In the past, “waiting for marriage” has provided a level of protection against the manipulative guys I seemed to attract. So, even though my FH seemed like a nicer guy than anyone I’d dated before, when we started dating, I needed that level of protection (or at least to put that decision so far off that it was a non-issue). Over the next four years, as I got to know my FH better, there were many, many times when I/we thought about not waiting. But we stuck with it. The reason why sounds silly when I try to explain it, but here goes:
We had made waiting a promise to each other, one of the first we made to each other. If we got to a point where sex would be a comfortable idea for both of us, even though it meant breaking our word, how could we proceed and still expect our word to mean as much in the future? Despite it being just between us, the agreement to wait until marriage was a vow as serious as the ones we’ll make in 8 days, and the idea of breaking it feels equally serious.
It wasn’t just about vows or promises. It sounds unromantic to start off a relationship thinking about the what ifs of being attracted to someone else someday, but growing up I saw a lot of relationships die. These were relationships that both the husband and the wife wanted, but one or both of them couldn’t keep themselves from acting on an attraction to someone else, an act which killed their marriage. So, even though I can’t imagine being as attracted to someone else as I am to my FH, I needed to show myself that I had control over my behavior, even when facing desire and lust and attraction.
We’re 8 days away from our wedding night, which has meant lots of awkward, unsolicited advice. And yes, sometimes I think many of our friends were those people rushing into marriages so they could have sex, because they can’t even comprehend our “plan” to not to have sex on our wedding night. If it happens, it happens and that’s fine too, but between our exhaustion levels (my FH fell asleep in a store yesterday in the 10 minutes it took me in the changing room) and my FSIL’s wedding the day after ours, first time sex isn’t a priority. Sleeping and relaxing and getting back to being ourselves instead of “bride and groom” are. We’re not worried. We’re not in a rush. We’ve got the rest of our lives to figure this out.
June 3, 2010 12:07 pm
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What a great post and fantastic contributor! I also liked that the full post was displayed on the main page, without a click-through. Someone above suggested displaying the full text of the current post each day, and I think that’s a great idea.
As far as my perspective- I didn’t wait. Looking back, my initial reason for not waiting was totally about rebellion. The noise surrounding premarital sex was pretty intense for me. I went with my Christian youth group to a True Love Waits rally when I was about 11 years old…and my perception then was that it was 1) too early for me to wrap my mind around such a big decision, 2) too forced and theatrical, and to my mind, insincere (picture 300 preteens in matching t-shirts holding candles and watching a silent pageant of a girl having premarital sex and then dying during childbirth…ick,) and 3) not a decision I was willing to let anyone else make for me (I was totally that kind of kid.) So when it was my turn to sign my virginity away to God and a vague image of some future husband, I quietly folded up the pledge card and tossed it in the trash. When I lost my virginity a few years later to my high school sweetheart, it had a lot to do with love and a little to do with distancing myself from the notion that sex was somehow bad or shameful.
Over the years, my ideas about sex have matured quite a bit. Now at 25 and newly married to my partner of over 6 years, to me sex is an extension of intimacy. You can have intimacy without sex, and vice versa. And intimacy in my relationship comes from good communication, putting my husbands’s needs ahead of my own, trust, vulnerability, friendship….and sex, too, of course:)
June 3, 2010 12:31 pm
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The full post thing is complicated, giving the financial realities of blogging and running this site. I forgot to put in a break today, but I’m not sure that’s going to be a regular thing. I know. It’s annoying from a user point of view…. but at the moment readers are not helping to pay the APW bills. So. It is what it is.
June 3, 2010 6:07 pm
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I’d help pay. And I’m sure that there’s a lot of people out there wiser than I who would volunteer to help be comment repliers and moderators and put up posts, etc.
We heart you! Sorry for the 200+ comments!
June 4, 2010 5:45 am
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I usually read the post first in my reader so the click-through isn’t an issue for me. you have to click through to get to the comments anyway, I’m not sure what the problem is to click through when the post has a break. I’ll pay for the site too but not for a post without a break in the middle. I’m sure there’s enough you need paid for already.
June 4, 2010 7:18 am
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I think this was a beautiful post, and wonderfully brave. It takes a lot to put your choices out there for the world to judge, and I think your advice for couples choosing to wait is spot-on.
That said… there really are some sexual incompatibilities that love and friendship and open communication just cannot overcome, and sometimes you just aren’t going know what they are going to be until you get some practice. Most people do not know who they are as sexual beings until they start doing it, and that’s actually more true for women than for men (women more often “develop” kinks than men do… most men know what their kinks are pretty early on in their lives as sexual beings). Go check out Dan Savage’s column and/or podcast, and you’ll get an idea of the true range of sexual desires out there.
I say this not as a criticism, but as forewarning to those considering the path of waiting.
All of that said, I think that for any couple choosing to wait, Liz’s advice here is the best possible advice to follow. I only have one thing to add… masturbation. It’s healthy, it will help with the self control, and most relevant to this discussion, it will help you get to know yourself as a sexual being so your sexual communication with your partner pre-marriage can be more knowledgeable.
June 3, 2010 12:37 pm
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I think you know if you’re compatible or not just by fooling around, I really do. It’s like when people say that you shouldn’t get married unless you’ve lived together. If you’ve spend a lot of time together? You know. The rest is just details, you can work it out.
June 3, 2010 6:09 pm
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Meg… most people can. Most couples. But definitely not all.
June 3, 2010 7:31 pm
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But Amy – you’ve got to let people make their own choices. I just dislike selling fear… “but it might not work.” I mean, yes, it might not. But that’s the case for all of our relationships on one level or another. Am I promoting waiting? No. But I’m saying I don’t like this particular line of argument a whole lot.
June 3, 2010 8:41 pm
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exactlyyy. THANK YOU for being anti-fear tactics. gets me so riled up.
June 4, 2010 7:20 am
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That’s a fair point. I’m not trying to say people should make choices out of fear… but I do think they should make choices that are fully informed. Anything in life is a risk. I definitely think waiting is right for some couples, but I also think that a lot of people have been disappointed by the concept that “love conquers all”.
June 4, 2010 8:36 am
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i reread and didn’t find “love conquers all” mindsets in any of the above.
yes, people have different sexual quirks and kinks and likes and dislikes. some are very different than others. but being willing to try, willing to talk about it, and willing to do what works for your partner are more essential than practicing first, i would think.
but we’re beginning from entirely different baseline points of perspective. to me, sex is about josh. it isn’t about the act. it isn’t about my parts or my experiences. for me, sex is most fulfilling when josh is satisfied. if that means i need to try out some crazy kink, ok. i’ll give it a go, without weird looks or judgment. and even if it’s not personally satisfying, it’s satisfying because it is for josh. in your comment, it’s clear that sex is a personal thing for you- sex is about whatever is going to please you. for me, that doesn’t factor in. and so far, that’s worked out splendidly in pleasing me- because josh is coming from the same perspective. his best pleasure is pleasing me.
this is why i find the “expectations” talks to be so important. because there are certain kinds of kink that will NOT be okay with me. and we’ve talked about that beforehand in very detailed ways- and are lucky enough that it’s not an issue, because our priorities and perspectives align enough that josh, too, thinks degrading forms of sex aren’t appealing.
who knows if one day something is going to pop up that josh likes and i can’t do. or vice versa. but i’m not afraid of that, because that’s not my motivation in having sex- sex is about enjoying josh, however that plays out.
June 4, 2010 7:38 pm
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The worst thing in the world is being tied to someone who you are completely sexually mis-matched with. It’s an absolute nightmare.
I’m with Amy 100%. It’s not “selling fear,” it’s common sense – discover who you are as a sexual being (and what kinky shit you’re into) before you decide who you’re going to be sleeping with, every night, without exception, for the rest of your life.
August 31, 2011 11:05 pm
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I know this post is old, and maybe this wasn’t even the intention in the first place, but I just want to put it out there that kinks and degrading forms of sex are not the same thing. Just wanted to sprinkle some kink-positiveness. :)
February 6, 2012 9:36 pm
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This is a fantastic post.
Because here’s the thing: I didn’t wait for the wedding, but I did wait. And I think many of the things in this post apply to anyone who waits in a relationship–whether it’s for a wedding or a third date or moving in together or whatever. Like talking. A lot. A whole lot. And then some more. :D Everyone should talk more.
There’s a couple of things that don’t ring true for my experience, though. Liz mentioned not wanting to “rush around all the bases” right at once, and I think this was the best thing I got out of not having a goal of waiting. I could take my time with ALL elements of sex, and there’s so much more to it than touching genitalia. I decided when to incorporate different elements of sex into my relationship based on what felt right, without any deadlines of when I couldn’t do something and when I could.
Along those lines, it also doesn’t ring true to my experience that “sex” is… well, any one thing. Touching genitalia or whatever. I’ve had some makeout sessions that were as intense as traditionally defined sex. So drawing a line anywhere on the sexual continuum (first base is fine but not third base, kissing is fine but no bathing suit area touching, holding hands is fine but no kissing, whatever) feels somewhat arbitrary to me.
And the last bit is… the “one and only” concept isn’t romantic to me. Honestly, I just plain don’t understand the appeal of having a “one and only”. I mean, okay, I understand it intellectually and absolutely think it’s a valid choice, but it doesn’t seem particularly more romantic than other choices, I guess.
June 3, 2010 12:40 pm
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romance is romance. for some, it’s candles and roses. for others, not so much.
same probably is true for sexual experience, i reckon.
June 3, 2010 8:56 pm
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Wow. Liz, this was very brave and very sweet and I think we all are grateful to you for treating us like intimate friends with your advice. When I first read the opening of this post my face flushed and my heart raced a little bit because I was preparing to feel judged, or to unconsciously judge others based decisions made.
However, this post never went there, not even close. It was great, great advice for all couples, married, unmarried, sexually active together or not. So much of this was cerebral and heart-centric, which is really where the majority of sexual troubles and joys lie anyway.
As usual here, a post well worth the time put into creating it.
June 3, 2010 12:47 pm
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I don’t have anything profound to add, but thanks for this post and all the amazing comments. I usually don’t read through all the comments (esp this many!) but I literally couldn’t stop myself.
I thought I would wait, but too much pressuring from friends in college got to me and I lost it at 19 to a hot shot college basketball player that I really had NOOOO connection with. Everyone insisted I was so lucky and couldn’t let the chance slip me by.
Now I’m engaged and my fiance and i didnt wait til marriage. we waited until i was ready again since i had emotional scarring from my first (i still regret it:( ). but i can talk to him about absolutely everything and have never felt so supported in that part of our relationship.
i think this post and all its comments is great because everyone has a respectful and unique viewpoint on the matter. i feel im leaning towards the it’s best to wait for ‘who’ not for ‘when’, but i love hearing from the women who waited to marriage, who were more ‘loose’ because they never thought the would be married, and everyone else in between.
is it just me or could this be turned into some kinda book or something? haha:)
June 3, 2010 12:53 pm
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This post is amazing. Liz, thank you for offering to talk about this; it has been absolutely insightful. And Meg, thank you for encouraging her and giving her such an amazing space to share this!! Y’all are rockstars.
I had a long, rambling comment ready about stuff, but I think that this post and these comments stand for themselves. Upshot: I started having sex at age 16, but to the man I’m about to marry, ten years later (aww, high school sweethearts). Everyone has their own way of doing things, and we can only seek to understand one another, and make decisions that are right for ourselves.
Thanks, APW, for encouraging posts and discussions like this. Meg, you’re the best.
June 3, 2010 1:01 pm
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Thanks for posting this, Meg. Thanks for sharing it, Liz. It takes guts to do that. I have to admit, though, that I’m also interested to hear from an advocate of waiting who is on his/her second marriage. I would have written this post somewhat word for word before my divorce but would write the opposite now that I am in my second marriage after learning more about the world and myself through sexual relationships (with him and with others). Like Liz says, how would she know what she’s missing? It’s the best sex she ever had. Now that I know what I was missing in my first marriage, I would never encourage another woman to get married as a virgin. I would respect her decision to do so (like I respect Liz) but I would never advise someone to do it. Is there anyone out there in my shoes who feels differently?
June 3, 2010 2:03 pm
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Yeah, but you can have LOTS of sex before marriage and still have no idea what good sex is….
June 3, 2010 6:11 pm
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But like you said, Meg, there’s a lot of grey here. Sure, you could be the exception who never finds a good partner just because of the luck of the draw. More likely, though, if you are open to experiences while still being smart about it, you’ll learn about yourself (and the sex will get better), you’ll learn from different men (and the sex will get better) and you’ll have a broad range of experience (so you’ll know when the sex just won’t get better so you can move on). Like I said, I think waiting is a choice that works for some people (and I have close friends for whom this is true) but I wouldn’t recommend it if I were asked.
June 3, 2010 7:02 pm
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What an awesome post. My fiance and I grew up in quite conservative communities and though we havent waited till marriage, we did definitely wait to be ready (3 years into our relationship). We have only had sex with each other, and (for us) that has been the best thing. Liz’s tips for waiting are great too…even if you arent waiting for marriage, but still waiting for the right person. Our first time was a bit awkward for sure with learning about each other, but it was also incredible. And we were totally prepared for that awkwardness because we had always been very open about talking about sex and we knew what each other liked and didnt like, and had an idea of expectations. I really appreciate Liz writing this post and showing that people who wait dont have to fit the stereotype that they are often assumed to fit. Kudos to you!
June 3, 2010 2:19 pm
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Wow. I’m another who’s never commented before, but this post is so *exactly* how I feel (and covers some of the *exact* same points my fiance and I have talked about together), I just had to say YESS! I’ve always been comfortable with my decision to wait, but it can be so hard to explain it to someone else…so thank you for spelling it out so clearly, non-confrontationally, and non-judgmentally. That is all :)
June 3, 2010 2:50 pm
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Oh wow, so many wonderful comments!
My story: I always wanted to wait because that’s what my church told me I should do but also because I saw my mom live a very promiscuous life that made all things sex related downright disgusting and immoral to me.
When I met my FH, I soon learned he had been with many people and it nearly broke my heart because I was saving it and kind of expected someone else to do it too for me. It took me a long time to get over that but in the end I decided to have sex with him because a) I loved him before I knew about his other partners and knowing it didn’t change who he was; b) I decided that for me, I wouldn’t let it be about the act but rather about the person; and c) I no longer bought into that whole “give yourself to your husband” stuff and decided as a feminist, my body belonged to me and that I would share it–not give it–with whomever I pleased (no one deserves it and no one can own it is my mantra!). I don’t think waiting would have made much of a difference because for us because it’s about us, not the ones before.
Honestly, the worst part of deciding to have sex was the fear of judgment from other people. And yes, people were haters and are still trying to send me to hell (*rolling eyes*), but I also found lots of support in unexpected places from my other Rebel Christian friends and eventually, I was okay with it.
It’s still hard sometimes to get past the terrible things I was exposed to as a kid. Honestly, it has diminished my sex drive dramatically which often makes things difficult for my FH, but we talk about it and he understands and wants to work through things with me. Communication is key. Some weeks we are on fire and other weeks there’s nothing. We try hard not to let society and “rumors” about sex dictate our life. For us, sex is part of our relationship but not the reason for it, and it’s certainly not the measurement of how successful we are as a couple! Our ability to share our feelings and thoughts with each other is the real rod of success if you ask me.
And if you haven’t had sex yet and want to ask, I’ll just say that sex isn’t “special” every time. Your sex life doesn’t have to look like a scene from the Notebook everyday. Those expectations are unreal. Some days, it’ll probably be just something you do like dishes. Other days, it’s like a carnal feast! Whether you wait or not (because both are good options), just be realistic. :)
June 3, 2010 3:36 pm
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“Honestly, it has diminished my sex drive dramatically which often makes things difficult for my FH, but we talk about it and he understands and wants to work through things with me. Communication is key. Some weeks we are on fire and other weeks there’s nothing. We try hard not to let society and “rumors” about sex dictate our life.”
this SO spoke to me. you put how i feel in words, which i didnt think i could do! i feel like our sexual relationships with our FH are almost identical, down to me being more chaste and him having been with a number of people before me… etc. im glad to find someone going through the same exact thing with their FH. we also have great sex days and not so good days where i just feel awkward and whatever.
do you ever feel like you won’t totally be able to let yourself go until youre married? sometimes i feel like that…
June 3, 2010 4:21 pm
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Hey Paige! I’m so glad I’m not alone either!!
Yeah, I do sometimes feel like it could/would be better after marriage but when I think about it rationally and not emotionally, I realize it’s too difficult to decipher whether those feelings are real or just a result of social conditioning and therefore are unreliable. I was told for so long that “sex will be amazing *once* you are married” that it’s been difficult to really leave that mindset behind. It’s really just another of those “sex rumors” circulated from my days as a virgin. I would really like to believe that it will all be comfortable for me when we finally do tie the knot but I think I’m old enough to know now that nothing changes overnight and no piece of paper will validate what we already feel in our hearts… But, that being said, I really, really, really long to marry this guy and I will! But not to make the sex life better or to be more socially acceptable. When we’re ready to set a date and pick out the rings, we’ll do it because it felt like the right time.
I like what other people have said about having a “sexual journey” where your thoughts change over time as do your expectations and feelings about the subject. You and me, we’re on a journey too. Married or not, one day we’ll both overcome our parent’s bad examples and the expectations of society and be freer people because we didn’t bow to either of them. :)
June 3, 2010 5:48 pm
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Oh dear! I hope that last bit didn’t come off as unsolicited sex advice–what I intended to say is that waiting or not, I think the result is the same. :)
June 3, 2010 3:56 pm
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Thanks Liz for being so honest with your post and I totally respect that this a personal choice for every indivuidual. What concerns me is that there seems to be a lot of comments here and what Liz orginally said about sex messing with your mind and binding you to people. I realise that sex is different for everyone and that people can get into terrible situations because of it, but I’m really struggling with this idea of how sex would mess with your mind. There seems to be an unhealthy focus on sex, I know this a sex post so of course, but to me sex is just another component to your realtionship. It is no more or less important than the other components of your relationship. I’m not saying that means you have to have it, but I’m saying you need to focus on it like you would other parts of your relationship, you also need to put effort into like other parts of your relationship. I’m not tied to my fiancee because we had sex (if that were the case I would have been tied to other people a long time ago!). That’s not to say that sex cannot be an amazing thing, but so can trust, commitment, great communication etc. It’s the combination that makes sex with your partner that more special.
June 3, 2010 4:07 pm
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no disagreement here.
i think what i’ve experienced, however, is that sex-like-things can make you feel like you have “something” with a person- where there is nothing. (a thought that i think has been echoed in the comments by a few)
but, yes. sex is just one component- there are many others that can tie two people in a similar way, making them feel like they have a solid relationship when they have nothing in common, no solid foundation.
i consider sex extra-potent, though, because it affects us in so many complicated ways- physically, emotionally, spiritually, socially…
June 3, 2010 9:03 pm
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1.) Is this the biggest exactly-fest in the whole world? I mean, how many exactlys is the most exactlys ever on a post? And is that counted in the number of comments? What I’m trying to say is that this is evidence of some serious synergy, if you ask me.
2.) Outta the park, Meg, outta the park
3.) I’ve never heard someone talk about waiting to have sex until after marriage outside of the context of religion, so this was pretty refreshing. Especially since I’m one of those formerly polyamourous, kinky, queer BDSM, from the chandeliers on tape in front of everyone gay girls.
4.) I love this stinky blog.
June 3, 2010 4:50 pm
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When I put this post together I kept thinking of you… and wondering what you were going to think. Swear.
June 3, 2010 6:13 pm
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exactly-fest! I ‘exactly’ that.
June 4, 2010 4:13 am
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This is an actual conversation between my now-spouse and his colleagues which took place during our engagement. We were both virgins and had chosen to have sex only with each other, after getting married.
–
[Fiance and gradschool classmates are out at a bar. Inevitably, the conversation turns to sex.]
Classmate #1: So, F, how many girls have YOU slept with???
Fiance: None!
[All classmates laugh at the hilarious joke.]
Classmate #1: No, seriously, what’s your number?
Fiance: None!
Classmate #2: Guys, come on, he doesn’t have to tell us if he doesn’t want to.
–
Apparently being a virgin is so far-fetched it must be a joke? I guess it is just another case of assuming that because someone has certain social markers (in grad school, in a long-term committed relationship, gregarious personality, and *ahem* stunning good looks in the case of my partner!) we can therefore deduce all kinds of details about their personal lives and choices.
June 3, 2010 6:25 pm
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I’ve definitely had moments like that. There have been times during my graduate classes where it seems like it’s just assumed if you were ever once a teenager than you surely have had sex (among other things). It’s interesting what people will decide about others.
June 3, 2010 8:23 pm
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Haha, I’ve had moments like this. My man and I didn’t wait, but we’re each other’s firsts, and people who met me after we started dating couldn’t believe that he was my first and only. Because I have a huge sex drive and a damn kinky side and I love talking about sex. But yeah, that always surprises people that I’ve only had “sex proper” with one person.
June 3, 2010 9:11 pm
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I can relate – not for me, as I have had sex, but for my fiance. He’s a very attractive man, who has waited for marriage – for me! – and apparently I should be worried that he is gay (which, it goes without saying, would be just fine if he wasn’t, you know, engaged to me, a woman).
All I can say is that while we haven’t made love yet, it has been, um, very difficult to wait. Difficult enough for me to be quite sure he is heterosexual.
March 24, 2011 5:40 am
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This is SUCH a good post and a well needed one!
As a former True Love Waits youth-group rebel (I very openly did NOT sign the form) I went on to have a baby at 16 with my first boyfriend (which made me terrified of sex, and now, at 29 I have had less partners than ANY of my friends) but religious forbidden fruit or not I agree with the mess, I agree with the mess-with-your-head, and even at my utmost mature decision to sleep with my now husband I cried afterward because 1. it was very shortly after ending a 3 year relationship with my prior and 2. it was probably just plain too soon.
I *know* he would have respected and even agreed if we had decided to wait until we were married (we knew really quickly marriage was what we wanted with each other-hurray!) but we decided we could handle it and it wasn’t frivolous and/or meaningless.
There is a great book called “What Our Mother’s Didn’t Tell Us” and it touches on the subject of waiting in a very pro-feminist way. I respect the advice in that book, and this post.
And I’m so happy to hear of other women who have or are waiting. Its nice to know its not as rare as i had thought.
June 3, 2010 6:26 pm
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My mom was VERY “You must have sex before you get married! It’s important!” from when I was oh, 11 or so (she was married in 1970 after all) & I grew up in an insanely liberal area, so it’s interesting to read this. I didn’t really get why you waited from this post? So it was an interesting read, but missing a few key details, like your age or if you decided this at a very young age? Did I just miss that part? It would be interesting to know!
I’m a total prude, I think I’m getting married so I can stop having sex. Haha, did I say that out loud?
June 3, 2010 6:42 pm
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BAHAHA.
and also, i’m 24. josh is 28. i decided probably during high school. i was always a thinker, ha.
June 3, 2010 9:06 pm
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Oh! Well that doesn’t seem that long to wait, really, though I guess kids are having sex REALLY young now. Personally, my boundary was that I didn’t have sex until after high school / I left my parents home and was on my own – but I’m getting married for the first time at (almost) 35. That would be a very long virginity. (Not that that’s a problem if it’s your thing, but I think for me waiting until 35 would have been a bit odd. ;D)
Thanks for sharing your perspective!!
June 4, 2010 10:06 am
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LOL. (is there some cooler alternative to “LOL” so that you can let someone know you LthefuckOL’ed without writing LOL?)
June 4, 2010 5:10 pm
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Hmmm. awesome discussion! and this comment is a nod towards the grey scale/spectrum of sexual relations that Meg mentioned earlier.
I grew up in a sexually ‘realistic’ household (if that makes sense) There was no pressure to wait until married, but definitely wait until it was right for me. My mother always said sex (actually she always said ‘love-making’) was a special thing between two people. My dad on the other hand, rather unhelpfully said ‘if you not having sex by the time your 19 then there is something wrong with you’. He didn’t mean this of course, but I think it was his way of trying to protect himself from his baby-girl growing up. So basically, I feel I had fairly heathy attitudes to sex, combined with a healthy family life that nurtured my self-esteem and provided positive role-models.
Before I met my partner, we both had had active sex-lives and numerous partners and we both learnt a lot about ourselves physically and emotionally through that process. But when we met, we actually waited for quite a while which was something many of my friends could not understand – so I do understand some of the social pressure that those who wait feel. My partner was definitely ‘the one’ and a small part of me has always wished there had been no one else before hand, but when we did get sexually intimate (way before we married) it was like I was a virgin again. Physically I knew the process, but being with my partner, the depths of physical and emotional intimacy that has developed over the years is nothing compared to what I had experienced before – it is like everyone else had evaporated or just didn’t matter.
And I guess what I take from all this, and what Liz so well describes/advises, is that whether you wait or not, sex in marriage and committed relationships is a process and a learning curve that can be beautiful and fulfilling but takes honesty, commitment, openness and communication. So really, whether you wait or not for THE wedding night perhaps doesn’t matter. What matters instead is the relationship that you and your partner have to build your lives together in all its aspects.
June 3, 2010 7:02 pm
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This article is SOOOOOO good.
And can I say that even though I didn’t wait for marriage to have sex I pretty much think that everything in this article applied to me as well.
Love. Love. LOVE the perspective you bring to things Meg (and team Meg).
June 3, 2010 7:42 pm
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Thanks for the thoughtful post. I’m here to respectfully disagree with some points – disagree in that these choices do not seem right for MY life, not disagree with the choices anyone has made for their own.
I have a weird perspective, maybe. I have only had sex with my fiance, and only once we had been dating for some time. But at the same time, I tend to believe that sex is a need that we as living breathing mammals have – it is not dirty, not to be pushed aside, not be ignored and resisted – it’s a natural act, as normal as walking and breathing. It’s in our make-up to want to reproduce. That’s just how the world works. So I think that resisting sex, or other contact of a sexual nature, it kind of turning your back on how nature (or God, or gods, or whatever) created you.
My other comment is maybe a bit too much information, but I intend to share anyway! When my fiance and I first had sex – actual intercourse – I bled. Profusely. For 6 hours. I sat in the bathroom and read a good, occasionally almost passing out from panic. My fiance tried to go back to sleep after awhile, but he was a wreck, feeling like it was in some way his fault. It wasn’t, and I was fine, and everything turned out fine. But at random points I think about how unbelievably glad I am that we did not wait until our wedding night. I’m so happy that I can enjoy the post-wedding haze and not end up bleeding and crying and panicking. That is not how a wedding night should end.
June 3, 2010 7:45 pm
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i’ve heard the anti-natural argument, and meh. some people never have sex. some people have it all the time. we’re all naturally different. learning to control our physical (yes, natural) urges is healthy, and also is a social construct (hullo, we don’t cave to these natural urges in the middle of olive garden). part of becoming a grown up is learning to control yourself- to hold your pee til you get to the toilet.
not intending to be crass.
June 3, 2010 9:11 pm
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bahaha. I just imagined a world where none of us waited to pee til we got to the toilet.
p.s. I think every single comment already said this, but:
Cheers to you Liz. Great post. Total exactly-fest.
June 5, 2010 7:06 am
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I know few will read this far down, but I seriously need to get in to this conversation.
First of all, THANK YOU so much for this. Non-religious waiting-for sex resources are practically non-existant, and that drives me crazy. My bf (hopefully soon fiance…) and I of 4 years have not had sex yet, for no religious reasons whatsoever.
We’re also not waiting for my reasons. We’re waiting because of him. And if you think that the cultural narrative that assumes that any couple in their 20s is having sex is heavy, try rethinking the cultural narrative that ALL BOYS want sex, and its is the girls responsibility to make them wait. I never planned on waiting for marriage (although I did want to be in a serious relationship) so when my boyfriend and I started talking about sex a year into our relationship (I wasn’t ready until then) and he told me he wanted to wait, I was shocked. And thanks to that lovely cultural narrative that “teenage boys/early 20s boys only want one thing” I assumed the problem was with me- he must simply not have wanted to have sex with me. And that was a major hurdle I had to get over, to understand that he loved me and wanted to have sex with me, but also wanted to wait, for all the reasons Liz listed.
I’ve come to except all his reasons, although its still hard- let’s be honest, I want him. But like Meg said, there’s not “waiters” and “non-waiters.” If such labels existed, I guess I’d be a non-waiter who happens to be waiting. Because I love him, and its important to him. And I will wait for him- after all, I’m certainly not going to break up with him just to get laid by some guy who doesn’t love me. But to use a term from the engagement posts, we’re couples waiting. Doing things at OUR pace, regardless at how crazy or prudish others think we are. We’re making compromises to build our relationship, and I love it.
Sometimes the peer pressure gets to me. Sometimes the stories I hear from my friends, the stuff I see on TV, makes me feel like we “should” be having sex, and that we are the only people in the world past the age of 20 who aren’t. Our culture sends such as weird message- sex as a teen is BAD BAD BAD, but sex in your 20s and beyond is pretty much expected. So this post is amazing- its really makes me realize that there is no normal, there is just figuring out what works for you and doing it. And isn’t that what Team Practical is all about?
June 3, 2010 7:50 pm
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Love this.
June 3, 2010 8:45 pm
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i wanted to wait AND josh wanted to wait. we were both aligned.
but josh had a few “mistakes” in his past. and i’ll be honest, sometimes his strength of willpower bugged me.
how was it that he couldn’t resist the other girls he had dated, but he could so easily resist me?
it’s very easy to get wrapped up into that train of thought (especially if you’re prone to insecurity or comparison), without recognizing that HULLO guys learn about themselves sexually, too. and josh, in his experiences learned some of the things i listed above and didn’t want to make the same mistake again.
kudos to you for stickin it through with him.
June 8, 2010 9:45 am
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I feel like I need to say thank you on behalf of your boyfriend, even though of course, that’s his job and I can’t speak for him in any way!
Which is, of course, a ridiculous way of saying something about me. My fiance and I have committed to not making love until we’re married (in 6 months and counting down…). He has never had sex before. For both of us, there are are religious foundations to the decision we’re making now, but these religious beliefs really just make sense of our experiences.
There are several facets to my experience, but one of them is this:
When I was 18 I fell in love, in that frantic, intense, desperately-wanting-to-be-loved way that 18 year olds sometimes do. My boyfriend, who it should be said was perhaps even more in love with me, had had sex, assumed we would have sex, and was, well, just confused that I didn’t want to. After a few months of confusion and tears and, well, pressure, I caved. We had sex, but in this awful ‘I don’t want you to leave me’ / ‘what I want doesn’t really matter’ way. And like Liz said, it tied us together – for 3 years. Despite the fact that we actually didn’t have anything in common.
Don’t get me wrong, he was ultimately a good guy. Also the fact that I caved? My responsibility. But still, the whole thing was awful, and very destructive. It had an impact on the relationships that followed, and while I learnt good things from the experience, there are days that I wish I had learnt them some other way.
Anyways, my point is: that experience makes me want to say how wonderful it is that you are willing to wait for the person you love, even if it is very difficult. Self-control is damn hard (like, damn hard, for me) but I believe it is a special kind of gift you can give someone.
My fiance’s self-control is something that makes me feel loved in a way I never thought I would be. I’m really looking forward to showing him how much I appreciate it in a few months time :)
March 24, 2011 6:06 am
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And sorry, I really should have given a shout to Liz there. Liz – amazing article. I officially have a crush on you, smarty pants.
June 3, 2010 7:54 pm
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I didn’t wait.
I waited until I was in love with someone, but I don’t think I waited long enough.I was too young. I didn’t know myself yet. Although, I suppose sex is part of getting to know yourself.
I once slept with someone I didn’t love. Just once. We had been “seeing each other” for six weeks or so. He knew my views on sex (ie- I hadn’t slept with anyone I didn’t love), and I think that he wanted to prove to me that sex could still be good if you didn’t love the person. He was a lovely guy and certainly didn’t pressure me into anything, but I was heartbroken at the time and I think I decided to do it when I was still in that haze.
It was okay, but it just didn’t have “it”. I barely saw him again after that (my choice).
I am glad that I didn’t wait for marriage, but in my experience (and just in my experience), sex isn’t worth it unless you’re in love.
June 3, 2010 8:26 pm
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Thank you so much for this post! I also waited (for religious and personal reasons, but really, isn’t religion a personal reason?). I commented once before (I think on the subject of long engagements) and mentioned in passing that we had waited until we were married. I remember feeling such anxiety after posting that comment. Were people going to ridicule me? Obviously, no one did, which is one reason I love this community. But I hated that I even had reason to feel so self-conscious about my decision.
I totally agree with almost everything Liz wrote. Especially that you don’t need to have sex to know if he/she is “the one.” If you have a great relationship aside from sex, you can make it work. My husband and I had a few kinks to work out in our sexual relationship. BUT, we were committed to each other and to making it work. And never once did I think, “I wish I had known this before we were married.” I still thought how incredibly lucky I was to be married to this person and that we had our whole lives to practice and get better at the whole sex thing. And you can tell if you have physical chemistry with someone long before having sex, am I right?
And, Meg, I heartily agree with your PSA about having sex on your wedding night. It being our first time, our wedding night sex was not mind-blowingly spectacular. Or anything like the movies. But, I still remember it with so much happiness. There has been better (much better) sex since then, but I wouldn’t trade that memory for anything. So even if you’re tired or stressed or have to wake up early to catch a plane, at least make an effort to do it. It’s worth it.
June 3, 2010 8:37 pm
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I don’t think it’s ever mind blowing, exactly. But it totally felt different for us. We were like, “married sex. HOT! Who knew?” But mostly we were tired, and sweaty, and tired and did I mention tired and hot…. and it was something we’ll always remember I think. So maybe it was mind blowing. Just not in the way you’d think.
(PSA alert ;)
June 3, 2010 8:50 pm
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I am so happy about this post.
It is something that is so rarely talked about but clearly is more common than people think.
My husband and I dated for almost four years without having sex (we just got married at the end of April and were both virgins).
We have been married 6 weeks now, and I am SO SO SO glad we waited. No regrets. And I think that is what truly matters in all of this. That all parties are happy with the choices and decisions made.
June 3, 2010 8:40 pm
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I particularly loved Liz’s last bit about “taking one for the team” and doing it even when you don’t feel like it. This is an attitude that I adopted not too long ago after grad school stress killed my libido. I just wanted to share that this has made the sex better all around, and I have no doubt that this will extend to other parts of our relationship. What scared me the most about getting engaged in the first place was the realization that I would officially have to curb some of my selfishness. This team spirit idea has helped me a lot with the sex stuff and the transition towards married life. Thanks for mentioning it Liz!
June 3, 2010 8:43 pm
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I, too, am on board with the “taking one for the team.” I actually embraced this a while ago when I read an article on marriage with Kate Hudson (when she was still married… OOPS! but I think the advice is still valid) where she basically made the same point. Even if you’re tired, just do it. Because usually once you’re in the *moment* you won’t be regretting it, but you might regret NOT doing it. Maybe that opens a can of worms since her marriage ended, but I always try to remember this advice even though with the hours I’m working right now I often would rather go right to sleep. However, I haven’t yet regretted choosing to delay sleep a little. It’s a little sacrifice or a little compromise for the greater good. BONUS: I fall asleep much faster and more soundly afterwards.
June 5, 2010 7:24 am
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I understand why people find it “refreshing” to hear non-religious reasons for waiting. However, that doesn’t mean that those of us with religious reasons for waiting are judgmental or oppressed, or not liberated, or naive. My fiance and I are waiting for religious reasons. But then again, I sometimes make dietary decisions for religious reasons (no meat on Fridays, certain dedicated fast days), and I sometimes make clothing decisions for religious reasons (I cover my head in Mass), and I often base the time I wake up in the morning on religious reasons (Mass/prayer times). With all the mundane, day-to-day decisions I make for religious reasons, why wouldn’t I have religious reasons for this uber-important decision? This isn’t to say one must have religious reasons to make this decision, but I try my best to make all of my decisions based on my moral and ethical code, which I happen to find through my faith, so our decision to wait is based on my faith and my fiance’s faith.
I don’t make any of my religiously-based (is that a phrase?) decisions out of a fear of hell, but rather a deep and honest belief that God wants what’s best for me. I don’t feel oppressed in my decisions, but rather I find freedom and peace and fullness. I know that when my fiance becomes my husband that I’ll be in a place where I can fully give of myself to him and he can do the same for me, and I know that were I to have sex tomorrow, as much as I would like to, I couldn’t feel free in it. Not because I’m afraid of going to hell, but rather because I’d feel like I was holding something back. I know that my decisions may seem a bit extreme or strange in today’s society (I’m waiting to have sex with my husband; I go to daily Mass when I can; we don’t plan to use birth control; neither of us have dated many other people), but they are the right decisions for me. They aren’t naive or ignorant. They were all made after careful thought, consideration, prayer, discussion, study, and questioning. Some of the “religious” decisions I make also have other additional “non-religious” reasons.
I don’t think I’m a nut, or a bible-thumper or some sort of judgmental fundamentalist. And I’m not naive; I’m a public school teacher in NYC. Do that job for a couple years and then tell me if you think it’s physically possible to come out the other side naive. I believe that everyone needs to make their own decisions in their own time. I want those around me to be as happy and as fulfilled as possible, and so of course I want to share those things that make me happy and fulfilled with them, but sharing is different from shoving it down their throats (and if I tried to do that, I would no longer be happy anyway, so really it would just be a room full of unhappiness, and who wants that?), but I respect that everyone will come to their own decision, and I firmly believe that that is a good thing.
I guess what I’m saying is that yes, my fiance and I are waiting. Yes, it’s for religious reasons (as well as other types of reasons). But if I am not judging the choices or the reason for those choices that other adults have made (although if I think someone close to me is acting in a self-destructive manner, I hope I’d have the courage to approach them about my concerns) then I don’t know why my choices and the reasons behind them should be judged. I’m sure that wasn’t the intention of anyone here, but be careful about the assumptions you make about people waiting for religious reasons. And be careful about making assumptions as to what exactly those religious reasons are.
June 3, 2010 8:59 pm
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i think the common misconception is that religious reasons for any decision = blind obedience. obviously this isn’t always the case- but from the sound of some comments, is based on personal experience with religious friends. thanks for pointing out that religious and practical reasons need not be distinct.
June 3, 2010 9:17 pm
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Whoa. I don’t think anyone is judging you. We’re pretty pro-religion here at APW. What we don’t tend to be pro is people pushing their views on others, and I think that’s been what people have been complaining about (sometimes less gracefully than others, but all with pretty good intentions). I didn’t love being told I’d burn in hell for not making the same choices as others (and that’s not a myth, that’s a reality). I don’t, however, have any problem with people making personal choices for religious reasons… I make plenty of personal choices for religious reasons.
I picked Liz to write the post because she was speaking to something that everyone could relate to. Making a choice because you think God thinks it’s right for you is a great thing, but that post might not be a great spring board for a generally secular interfaith discussion. Doesn’t mean it’s not VALID, it’s just very particular. I wanted to have Liz talk about the very universal elements of her choices.
June 3, 2010 10:07 pm
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Amen and hi-five!* Oh thank you thank you thank you! I’m so with you on the “not scared of going to hell God knows me”. And how hard is it to live in a world that sees religion as a list of oppressive rules to follow? Thank goodness we have the APW community who don’t judge.
*An “exactly” wasn’t enough!
June 4, 2010 5:59 am
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Bee, thank you for putting this so eloquently! There are certainly problems with the way some parents/churches/etc try to teach abstinence, but I think a lot of us who have stuck with the decision to wait have done so for the positive religious reasons you mention, and not out of fear or because we haven’t thought it through. Let’s be honest, it’s much easier to wait when you’ve thought about what you’re doing. Hooray for a forum that sees both religious and non-religious reasons for waiting as equally valid!
June 4, 2010 9:53 am
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In a wonderful and funny way, I can appreciate what youre saying about the rhetoric. Lemme tell you why. I get a little touchy when lesbian brides go into this *thing* when they start talking about how both of them are wearing a dress and how neither of them is “the man” in the relationship. As a femme, my hackles rise a little, because, for me, fawning all over a two dress lesbian wedding in one breath and then talking about how womanly the members of the couple are is a socially acceptable formula for being anti-butch. In the same way, saying “Liz’s secular abstinence is so awesome” and “isnt irritating that those religious people are always shoving abstinence down our throats” is a socially acceptable way for being anti-religion. So your point is well taken. Isn’t it interesting how there is a subtext when you pay attention to a conversation that goes: “this one way is awesome” “and this other way isnt awesome”. Like two dresses are awesome because hurtful hetero-normative assumptions about lesbian gender suck. And secular abstinence is awesome because rigid religious abstinence sucks. Well, sometimes religious abstinence is transcendental and lesbians who look like boys are the backbone of our community. Secular abstinence is awesome and religious abstinence comes in many flavors, if I may. Two dresses are awesome and a dress and a suit are their own special celebration.
June 4, 2010 5:37 pm
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what’s most interesting to me isn’t the “secular reasons are awesome, religious reasons aren’t” – it’s the assumption that because i have listed practical reasons, i must not have religious ones.
i never mentioned my spirituality. on purpose.
but i certainly never said “i don’t have any religious reasons for making this choice.” it’s just been assumed throughout. as if practicality and religion are mutually exclusive.
interesting to me.
June 4, 2010 7:43 pm
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I assumed you did have religious reasons.
June 4, 2010 8:24 pm
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at the same time, i think that’s part of the problem, too. we assume that anyone who is waiting til marriage is probably doing it because of religious reasons. i usually assume this because it is almost culturally synonymous… even though i tried to wait until i found someone i cared about (but i never intended to wait til marriage), although i am by no means religious. it’s just interesting how society dictates our assumptions sometimes without even realizing it!
June 6, 2010 2:19 pm
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You’re awesome. I just want to say.
March 24, 2011 6:15 am
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cheers to all you folks who balanced my “sex is important” with “meh, not that important.”
yes. sex is important. but what i failed to say, and you all did so well is that- ok, maybe you’ve made a sexual mistake in the past. it is NOT the end of the world.
our culture manages to both overemphasize AND underemphasize the weight of sex. we’re rarely told how important it is- in the sense of how it impacts us emotionally, how it affects our relationships. but we’re often faced with this idea that sex is somehow worse than other “mistakes” we make as we go. the past is the past. i hope that made sense. so many comments about baggage and regret from past mistakes made my heart heavy.
similarly, sex within marriage isn’t always huge. some nights are pure magic. and others are meh. just apart of the daily routine. and you’ll never know which will be which- even with a ton of planning. so having a meh night of sex. it doesn’t destroy anything. it’s just the ebb and flow of marriage, as with all things.
ps- thanks for not burning me on a stake!
June 3, 2010 9:24 pm
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Amen. Sometimes it is. Sometimes its REALLY not. It’s funny how that gets passed over in almost all discussions of it, and funny how both things can be so true at the same time.
Night kids. Play nice….
June 3, 2010 10:08 pm
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Fantastic, generous post. Thank you Liz and to Meg for facilitating it.
June 3, 2010 9:51 pm
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I loved this post. It’s nice to have a grown up conversation about this topic where the “waiters” don’t call the “doers” hoe’s and the “doers” don’t call the “waiters” prudes. Ahhhh… Take in the amazing-ness that is APW.
In my case, my FH and I didn’t wait for marriage, but we did wait until we knew we were committed to each other. I’ve only ever had sex with him and vice versa and right now I couldn’t be happier.
Sex is something the two of us have forever to work on and it is a constant source of opportunity for us to express our appreciation for eachother.
Thank you Meg & Liz for a very insightful post!
June 3, 2010 10:48 pm
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ABSOLUTELY AMAZING POST!
My FH and I are both virgins and plan to be until the wedding night. Yes, we are religious and yes we were instructed many times in our youth to stay “pure”, but like every single other aspect of our religion, at some point in our adult life we questioned, researched, and decided our view on it.
I remember at 16 I didn’t know why I needed to, other than that’s what the pastor said to do. When the subject became more of a pressing matter, I had to delve into my soul and find out what was right for me. It took a long time to figure out, and I’m still coming up with bullet points (thanks Liz for adding a few new ones!). It’s funny, we both did what was right for ourselves and for each other (although unknowingly at that time…)
Here’s the thing that gets me:
“Josh had never seen me in less than a bathing suit, and touched anything between my neck and my knees before we got married.”
When I read this, outdated-influence made me cringe with guilt. Like I said, we knew we wanted to save sex for marriage, but who ever thinks about things like umm ya know…other stuff not technically sex but more just like fooling around?? Because of what most people I go to church with believe, I feel guilty sometimes that we have done such things.
And then I say to myself HOLD ON.
We talked about it with each other for so long and in such great detail and came to a mutual decision that FOR US some things are ok that would not be considered ok for other couples. No guilt, no going-to-hell, no disgrace…it is what is right for our relationship :)
June 4, 2010 12:26 am
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Thank you Liz, and Meg. I wanted to raise something of a tangent at this late stage in the comments; but I believe it’s not too uncommon and hasn’t been mentioned yet. I’m talking about not having had sex before getting married because you haven’t been able to (vaginismus is the medical term).
My FH and I met when we were young and I hadn’t had any other significant sexual experiences. While we were intimate fairly quickly, we waited a long time before attempting full sex but just couldn’t. It took me a long time to seek help and face up to it but we’re working on it now and determined to overcome it. (Good for remembering your priorities about what matters and what doesn’t when wedding planning actually, and for working on communication with your partner.)
Anyway, I would never tell anyone about this in real life because I find it so deeply embarrassing, and as others have mentioned there is something of a taboo if you’re not having wonderful, easy, plentiful sex in your 20s. On the other hand, I feel like I’ve been caught out both ways by cultural messages, because my (Catholic) upbringing at home and school told me again and again and again that sex before marriage was absolutely wrong and my biggest fear was becoming pregnant, which in my head was worse than death (and I wasn’t even close to having sex at the time!). And I think that this is the cause of the unconscious reaction to shut the muscles that my body takes when sex is attempted. So…I’m all for sex positivity. Also, you can feel very alone and freakish if you’re going through this so I wanted to put it out there.
June 4, 2010 3:27 am
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My best friend in high school was having trouble having sex and we some how discovered vaginisimus. We called it vagi-christmas.
June 5, 2010 5:22 am
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Lizzzzzzzzzzz, first of all I just want to say that I loved your wedding. It was very chic and very unique, just beautiful! And the fact that you and Josh waited for 3 years… well done especially you’re such a gorgeous looking couple and it required such a determination to stay away from temptations! Me and my husband didn’twait and have had sexual partners in the past, although I wish that I waited for him.
I really loved your article and I wish that not only APW readers can read this, but teens and women’s magazines readers as well, hence they can see from another point of view, and more reasons why they should wait. It is very true that women usually get too attached with the men that they had sex with, and it made them stay in bad relationships or hurt even more when they do break up with the wrong guys.
June 4, 2010 6:12 am
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I felt the need to chime in here: this article was about why LIZ waited, and why that was great for her, not about ‘why you should wait.’ I actually don’t think you should wait, for the record, unless it’s your thing. I would never tell a kid to wait (though I would tell a kid it was their business and they should do what was right for them and their partner).
Just needed to clarify that.
June 4, 2010 8:52 pm
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I would love to hear some discussion about sex-talks, both for people who do and do not have sex pre-marriage. How do you talk about sex drives and compatibility and long distance and monogamy?
June 4, 2010 8:36 am
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Liz, I’m so glad you wrote this! The big ideas here are communication, thoughtfulness, and choice. Somehow, my previous thoughts on waiting lost sight of the fact that people may go through those 3 things and still choose to wait. Maybe because I had many friends who were “blindly obedient” to their religion and married quickly with sex as a main focus, only for it not to work out (again, with sex as a big factor in each case). I just couldn’t understand – I’m excited now that I do. I always thought I’d encourage my future daughters to not wait, but now that I can see the other point of view I’ll be able to inform them of both sides and let them choose for themselves.
APW continues to make me a more open-minded, thoughtful person!
June 4, 2010 9:32 am
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