Ok. So. I was going to write something totally on-topic today, but I can’t. I’m still so immersed in all the things I started thinking about this weekend at Mighty Summit that I gave up. I have to write about that.
As I mentioned, a huge part of this weekend was about thinking and talking about life goals and life lists. Not just life goals like, I would like to visit the Greek islands (which I would, but in the end that's pretty simple, I just have to buy a ticket), but the big huge scary things. Like, I want to sell a book, or I want to start a foundation, or I want to speak at a conference, or I want to write articles for major magazines, or I want to get control of my finances.* You know, the kind of stuff that you think about how you want to do them, and then you immediately throw up a million obstacles in your own path, and talk about how it’s really not possible, and then quit the project before you even start. You know, THOSE goals.
Well, one super super amazing woman at the conference, Cecily (who’s blog you must read, when you finish with this post) talked about how she wanted to work on her relationship with money. Or really, how she wanted to move past being broke all the damn time, and she was totally overwhelmed by how to do that.
(Side note: I’ve been there, by the way. Once I told David that I’d probably never own a house, because, “Money was not for me.” By which I meant, I’d never really had any money or made good money, so I figured I’d NEVER have money, and I better just come to terms with that early to avoid further disappointment. I think David proceeded to smack me across the head and say something like, “Well I like having money and being able to buy neato tech toys, so get with the program.” Which I did, but I digress.)
Anyway, on the last night of dinner I was sitting next to Cecily when Maggie started talking to her about money. Cecily just wrote a thoughtful post about this conversation, so I’m going to quote her description of what happened:
I was sitting across from Maggie at dinner, she leaned back and looked at me (while wearing a stylish black turban) and said, "We need to figure out what is blocking your flow of money."
It was a very California thing to say.
I tried to stay open minded, but I was clearly putting on my cynical face. She pressed on anyway, saying that I needed to "make money flow through me" and "open myself up to money." I felt increasingly skeptical, but this was the host of the event, and I wanted to be polite, so I mumbled some "uh huhs" and "yeps". I then said, "All I need to be making is (blank amount of money) a year." Maggie looked gobsmacked and said, "You? A blogger with your influence? Can make five times that."
I felt like I'd been punched in the chest. And I felt angry. I didn't know why I felt so angry, but I did. Maggie then said, "Maybe you need to stop thinking about money for you, but instead think of funneling money through you out into your community."
Maggie then moved on to talk to other people, and I sat stewing for a moment. Nicole, who happened to be sitting next to me, let me babble at her for a while about why what Maggie said wouldn't actually work for me. But while I was talking, Nicole's gentle responses opened things up further (with frequent hilarious commentary from Meg) and I suddenly got it.
In many ways, I've been on a kind of money diet. Just like I had with food, my relationship with money is "disordered." I've been poor forever; my poverty as a child (and as an adult) has made me have a kind of tunnel vision when it comes to money. I've trained myself, basically, to financially subsist and no more. The income I suggested I earn to Maggie seemed wildly extravagant to me. I've never earned that much as an adult, so the bigger amount she mentioned just seems crazy and astronomical -- and, most importantly, NOT ACHIEVABLE. At least not by me.
All that I’m going to add to that description is that when (beleaguered) Cecily named the amount she wanted to make, her lofty dream, you could literally hear my and Maggie’s heads exploding in tandem. I think I yelled, “WHAT?” followed by, “THAT’S ABSURD!” and “YOU’RE WORTH SO MUCH MORE THAN THAT!” You know, not that I ever have any opinions.
In the next few hours I had a long conversation with Heather (Oh my god, you need to read her blog too, she’s amazing!) about how women chronically undercharge, and hence under-earn even when they work for themselves. The next morning I had another conversation with Maile (who makes these super stylish camera-bags-as-purses and who’s life story totally blew me away), about how women will set a financial target for themselves like, “If I make $60,000 a year, I’ll be RICH!” which then turns into, “I’m worth $60,000 a year,” which then turns into “I’m only worth $60,000 a year and more would be greedy.” At which point we cue never making more than $60,000 a year, because that’s your mental limit. This may sound hippy-dippy, but for freelancers it's pretty realistic (and I'd argue it's probably true for salaried people too).
Now. I’m not writing this to talk about money, exactly. I’m writing this to talk about self-worth. After spending two plus days hanging out with some of the most accomplished (in a free-wheeling, freelance, creative way) and supportive women I’ve ever met, I’ve been thinking a lot about self-worth. I’ve been thinking about how as women we often undervalue ourselves, our life stories, and what we’re capable of, and that leads to lost potential. We think, "I can’t do that, I can’t dream that big, I’m being selfish to even think about this, I don’t deserve to earn (or have my company earn) that much money, I shouldn’t have delusions of grandeur." And when this happens, we all lose. Think of all those projects that could have been created, those businesses that could have thrived, that money that could be flowing back into our communities. When we cut ourselves off at the knees we lose all that, our communities lose all that, we all lose.
So I guess this does come back to our ongoing Reclaiming Wife discussions (quelle surprise!) Because I think the minute that we get married, let alone have kids, the cultural script tells us that our most important job is to nurture others, and the way we can best nurture others is through selflessness. We’re told that to nurture, we need to give up on all our personal dreams, for the ‘bigger’ dream of family.
On my bad days, I tell David I think I’m too selfish to ever be a mother. When he makes me define selfish, I say things like, “I want to own my own business and write and publish and go on trips, and experience things and… and, and, and.” And then David, being the saner of the two, points out that doesn’t mean I’m selfish, that means I’m ambitious and self-aware. And that being ambitious and active and happy is what will make me a GOOD mom. That crushing all my dreams so I could give up all myself for my child would probably NOT make me a very good mom, since it would make me a very sad person.** Or as the amazing Cate Subrosa said, “My baby is not the only thing that matters to me. In fact, the things that mattered to me before matter just as much. There is room in my sense of what matters for everything else to still have its place, despite this enormous space now taken up by the needs and desires of my darling baby. I am still me.”
So. I’m thinking long and hard about the ways that I undervalue myself. I am reasonably good, for a thirty year old woman, at valuing myself and asking for what I want, but I know I could be a lot better.
I need to keep practicing saying, “I would like this. Could you give this to me?” And then letting the person I ask say yes or no, instead of deciding that the answer must be no and not bothering. I’m fan-f*cking-tastic at asking for small things that I want (ask my poor web designers, or any waiter ever, or my husband), and not so great about asking for big things. I always think, “Oh I can just do this on my own, I shouldn't ask for help,” even when I clearly would do better with help.
I also need to do a better job about thinking of money as a tool, instead of thinking of it as the root of all evil. I think as women we do a really good job about shaming each other about money. When was the last time you saw a guy tell another guy that because his new creative project was making money, he was a sellout? I mean, basically never, right? Guys say things like, “DUDE. That’s so awesome that you’re doing so well.” And women say things like, “Have you thought about how you’re selling out and destroying the soul of your endeavor by making this much money?” Because, you know, we’re ladies. We’re supposed to give things away for free, because we’re nurturers. Nurturers of the world, apparently, for free. So I need to learn how to turn those voices off, and see success as an ok thing. And yes, see MONEY as an ok thing.
Even for me.
As a woman.
As a wife.
I need to keep practicing being full-of-self, instead of selfless. And rocking the hell out of that.
Picture: Me making the patented Meg Face. Taken by the talented and vivacious Amber, of The Amber Show. She was my roommate this weekend, and you should read her blog too!
*Note: that’s a mish-mash of everyone’s goals, not just my goals
** Can we all agree to realize that when I say this, I'm not somehow implying that moms who stay home are the ones that give up their dreams, and I hate stay at home moms? Because, you know, I think you can live your dreams staying home with your kids, and crush them at a soul-less job, and vice versa. It really all depends. Maybe one day I won't have to give this disclaimer every time.... hum....
Umm… hell yes. This is EXACTLY what I needed to hear today.
(even better being from someone who actually has helped and supported me along the way- despite my fears of asking for help :)
September 23, 2010 12:14 pm
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Oh Meg, where have you been all my life? This is spot-on.
September 23, 2010 12:23 pm
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I’m kind of in this strange place where I actually think my current salary is more than I’m worth – or at least, more than the job is worth. I mean I have time to read this blog and hundreds of comments all day, clearly I’m not working too hard over here. And it’s not like the work is suffering, I just have that little to do. It’s driving me bonkers and it’s seriously killing my self esteem, it feels like my work ethic is eroding and I’m turning into a lump of goo. At my previous job I worked my a** off and every penny I made felt earned. Now I just feel guilty for not fessing up that my position really should be part-time. But I’m supporting my husband through grad school, the job market is really rough around here, who would be crazy enough to ask to be cut down to part-time??
so yeah I’m job hunting. and I have noooo idea how much to ask for (because everyone is demanding that you list salary requirements or they’re throwing out your application). I’m terrified to take a risk and make a move into something more meaningful for myself, because you know, “oh I can’t do that, who am I kidding.”
BUT I’m also taking a class to start satisfying prereqs for grad school (your life list post from a while ago finally gave me the kick in the pants to do this). I may be frozen in this ridiculous job at the moment but I see a light burning a few years ahead. My husband was definitely instrumental in convincing me I was good enough for grad school, but without the APW community I don’t know how the hell long it would have taken me to take a step in that direction.
September 23, 2010 12:31 pm
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Ha! Your first paragraph made me laugh because that’s the exact situation I was in. Plus lots of hulu watching. Except that I quit my job this week because I’m preparing to move (this week) in advance of my wedding (next week!) – after a few years of doing the long distance thing.
I don’t know about you, but I found that the boredom and ease of workload definitely plays down my sense of worth as a contributor/creator/worker. It has made me question my usual go-get-’em attitude, and makes me wonder if I’ll find work that drives and motivates me again.
September 23, 2010 12:54 pm
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aahhh Shelly those are my feelings exactly. it’s the most icky sensation. we can still be go-getters!!
best of luck with the move and have a great wedding! and high-fiiiive for quitting that job.
September 23, 2010 1:23 pm
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ME TOO (like, two months ago)
and now i’m busting my ass at a job i love for a measly little paycheck. and feel SO fulfilled.
what helped me through that first job, though, was hardcore pursuing other “careerish” goals. because i felt like my day-job was a waste of my oxygen
September 23, 2010 1:12 pm
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I’m glad you got out of your soul-sucking job. :) I’m feeling better already, just taking this one class.
September 23, 2010 1:25 pm
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Oooohhhh been there. I’m still not quite in a soul-satisfying job, but I had to make huge pre-wedding transitions like DDay & Shelly: quit my former soul-sucking job, moved to the same state as my husband, got married, found job that PAYS. Now BREATHING.
And I finally feel like I can start pursuing those “careerish” projects & self-improvement. It’s really nice to kind’ve be re-born, with all my former experience and training, into a new place that excites me into exploring new possibilities.
September 23, 2010 1:41 pm
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YEEEEEESSSSS.
I’ve been very fortunate in some ways, that most of the jobs I’ve held in my career so far haven’t been too stressful. At times, yes, but by in large, not at all. (Oddly enough, the job where I busted my a** was at a non-profit, where I didn’t make nearly as much money for doing a lot more work. So it goes, eh?) While I certainly hate to complain, it’s definitely had a negative effect on my work ethic. I’m almost itching to get out of my current job, simply because I feel as if I’m not doing what I’m capable of, and I almost feel that it’ll be that much harder to actually work again. It’s not as if I feel that I’m not worth what I’m paid, it’s that my position isn’t what I’m worth, if that makes sense.
Marina used the word ‘complacency’ in her post earlier; when I read it, I was like, ooooohhhhh. That’s what I feel. Complacent. But I’m kind of stuck at the moment for a variety of reasons. I’ve been thinking about doing stuff on the side, although I find it difficult to motivate myself when it’s not necessary.
It’s also difficult for me because I never really placed that much emphasis on my CAREER — I am well educated and have always aimed to have “good” jobs that pay well enough, but never thought I’d be particularly powerful or high up in my line of work. Not because I ever thought I couldn’t be, but because I don’t know if I ever particularly wanted to. Which puts me in a really weird position, and I’m not sure where to go from here.
It’s been interesting to read other women comment and discuss their work in relation to their worth, both monetarily and otherwise.
September 26, 2010 1:44 pm
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Thank you, Meg, for introducing this discussion. As a soon-to-be clinical psychologist in graduate school and someone in the business of helping people*, I have all too often caught myself saying things like, “Oh, I just want enough money to be able to buy black slacks when I need them.” Or, “These people need help! How will they get help if they have to pay?”
Oh, yes. I have thought these things. And then one of my very smart, witty, successful, supervisors taught me differently. Only recently, as I begin to think about obtaining a “real” job, have I really thought about what she said. It was very much along the lines of your post. Yes, I have a skill that helps people…and yes, it happens to be a skill that is also nurturing BUT, my skill set is worth something. Would I suggest that my physician work for free? (Well, actually I suppose I have negotiated a bill by applying for assistance, but that’s a different subject.) Would I expect that my car mechanic fix my car for free?
So, how do I reconcile my “bleeding heart” with a need to pay the bills and a want for much more? In private practice, I could designate a certain amount of time as pro bono. And then in my research, by demanding my worth and putting a price on what I have to offer, I hope that I can share what I learn, thereby helping people. By understanding and acknowledging my worth, by not being afraid of “no” or a negotiation, I can earn grants, I can do the research I want to do as a way of giving to the community.
Thank you for bringing me back to these lessons!
*I say this knowing that many, many, many other professions are about helping people.
September 23, 2010 12:31 pm
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This post (and alllll the comments) hit so close to home that I can’t come up with anything eloquent to say, except, thank you.
September 23, 2010 12:48 pm
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I love you Meg. Serious girl-crush happening right here. :) And I love all the amazingly smart women who hang out here (y’all inspire me daily).
This post is timely and oh-so-needed. Why do we think doing what we love and what comes naturally to us isn’t worth money? That we should give it all away for free without question? That it couldn’t *possibly* be a career because it’s what we love?
Thank you. (What a woefully inadequate two words for what I feel.)
_Amy
September 23, 2010 1:27 pm
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Thanks meg, and other beautiful ladies out there. Reading all of this felt like taking one. deep. breath.
September 23, 2010 1:57 pm
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So I was having a conversation with my co-worker last week. I work for a small ( ie three people) company in the health care field ( ie we are occupational therapists and provide a service). Our billing rate has gone up recently, but our boss hasn’t really offered to pass this on to us in our hourly wage ( our boss is also female). We discussed asking for a raise, both of use are really uncomfortable doing so. There is this stereotype that we are in health care to help others, not get paid. We are already going against the “norm of OTs by working in the private sector ad not working for the local hospital ( and thus belonging to a union).
I feel like I went to school for a LONG time and have all these crazy good skills to do my job, but no one ever told me how to go about asking for a raise. Like its not something I should be doing! Google wasn’t much help either!
September 23, 2010 2:15 pm
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Yeah! They have lots of resume writing tips, but what about tips on asking for a raise!!
I honestly don’t know how to get up the guts to walk into the office to ask…
…but I’d say first start with research — what are other OTs (if there are other private OTs) in the area making? Exactly how much have rates gone up? Have there been any new expenses added for the company that this profit needs to cover first? (recent move, new software…etc) Have any other employees been hired/gotten raises? (a good sign that business is good and a good sign that they should share the wealth with you!)…
I’d say if you break it down into comparisons and calcs, at least you’ll be confident that when your boss asks “Why?” you’ll have some pretty damn good evidence to back you up!
September 23, 2010 2:43 pm
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My best friend, who has never had any trouble earning good money coached me pretty well on asking for a good salary, she always told me that if it doesn’t feel extremely uncomfortable while I’m asking, than I’m not asking for enough. This advice has served me in good stead during my sojurn in corporate America (or corporate Europe as it were)
Last year when I told my boss I was overdue for a promotion and a raise, I was given the promotion and a ‘raise’ which was really an cost of living adjustment for inflation. My prompt response was ‘Is this a f*cking joke? (I don’t recommend this approach to everyone) I then proceeded to make a lot of noise and bust out my saved arsenal of emails and comments from colleagues and superiors that I had collected over the last year telling me how awesome I am, along with a Power Point (complete with pie charts and stats!) describing all the ways I had majorly kicked a**. I then proceeded to methodically send them to all of the people that mattered, and kept bugging my boss – and then I got my g*dd*mn raise, dammit.
BUT.
When it comes to my own business, all this machisima just evaporates. I have no idea if I’m underpricing or overpricing and it feels much more personal – I’m selling things to actual people (brides no less!) – and I don’t want to seem like I’m trying to gank people. It’s a lot different than making sure I get my fair share from The Man.
Sometimes it helps to just think about what I want and need – and then price backwards from that. I am sick to my teeth of the corporate world (and am basically about to leave it) but I LIKE MONEY. I’m not ashamed to say it, and not even so I can be saintly and give it to other people (although I do that too.) My husband and I have been living as DINKS (double income no kids) for the last few years with no debt and no mortgage, etc. and it’s been FREAKING GREAT! We were able to do what we want and still save enough money over a year and a half to take six months off to travel and just ‘hang.’ Everything’s relative, we live under our means (in a one bedroom apartment) but we have traveled all over the place, don’t even blink when friends announce some junket in the Alps or in Berlin or in New York. We eat good food and drink nice wine. My husband buys his gadgets and I can stockpile my cash. I don’t want to give any of this up.
Now, as I’m writing this I’m starting think ‘Everyone is going to think I’m some kind of a**hole’ I guess my only point in writing this is to say – I really enjoy life and some of things that money brings. I don’t think I’m an extravagant person, but life is too short to be worried about and/or restricted by money and I really don’t ever want to go back to living like a student. My enjoyment and appreciation of these things is what motivates me to try and make sure I’m valuing myself and pricing my work correspondingly.
So loving to travel and being kind of a glutton. My recipe for making sure you get paid what your worth!
September 23, 2010 2:29 pm
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I know what you mean by two different situations.
We have two sides to our business. One side sells to individual people in real need, so we keep the prices as low as we can. The other side sells to businesses with plenty of money, so even though our price is better than what they usually get, we still make a lot.
Yeah, the customer situation does matter.
September 23, 2010 6:20 pm
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Your best friend’s advice is brilliant and I will have to remember that.
Also, is machisma a word? I get the feeling it wasn’t before, but it is now that you’ve written it, and an awesome one too.
September 23, 2010 11:07 pm
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I’m in an odd situation … part “wtf, why is *insert name here, working the same position* making so much more?” and part what DDay talking about: “I have so much free time, how is it I am getting paid this?”. In my case, one led to the other.
Turns out, I can do all my work, DAMN WELL, and still have time to fool around. Play on the interwebs, read and comment (and read all the comments) on APW, daydream. Which for a really long time made me feel like I was being a lazy slob, and never going to accomplish what I knew I could.
Then we get a transfer from corporate who’d been recently promoted out of my position (or rather, the same position I have). And he constantly says what a rockstar I am for handling everything I do … turns out, I do double the amount of work he was doing. And saying I’m fantastic at it all. Which is SOOOOOO heartening … I’m not being lazy, I’m just rocking it and having the time to relax.
But why, then, when we get into a discussion about timesheets (he being new in our office and all) I come to find out (totally by accident) that he’d been making (in my position) significantly more than I am?
It’s a freaking double edged sword. I’m getting both sides of it. I negotiated when I came in, and am happy with my salary … so why do I get the feeling that I totally got low-balled?
September 23, 2010 2:35 pm
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How annoying to realize you were lowballed like that, and that your work product is so much better! Can you go to your boss and say, “I do awesome work, I want to take on more responsibility and get paid more, also”?
Makes me feel lucky to work for the federal government… the pay structure (for most, at least) is totally transparent!
September 23, 2010 5:58 pm
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Sadly, my boss is on my side with this. I say sadly because the pay structure is not up to her … it’s a small company, so the CFO makes the pay decisions for all employees. He, of course is at corporate and doesn’t see my work.
::sighs::
On the plus side … January is right around the corner. At that point I will (and she will!) push for a significant raise. It’s nice to have someone on my side about it. =)
September 23, 2010 6:06 pm
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that’s a load if i’ve ever heard one. get documentation of your (excellent) work, get industry/job standards, and say you’d like to have a conversation with her, and if the CFO is making your pay decisions, it might not be a bad idea for him/her to attend as well. remember, cheaper for them to give you a raise then see you leave and have to hire/train someone else. go for it!
September 24, 2010 9:33 am
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rereading my comment, i thought it came out wrong. when is said “load” i meant that the person in charge of your compensation doesn’t see your work and its used as an excuse for you not to get paid what is fair. not that you/your boss are per say at fault. i just think that even if it’s a small company, fair is fair and in the long run, paying good money for good employees will make their small company be super profitable. and waiting until January, if you get a 10% raise on a $40K salary, but you could have been eligible 3 months ago, you just un-earned $1,000. which is a load of some baloney, because your raise is deserved for work you’re doing now.
September 24, 2010 9:38 am
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There is such great discussion here already – and I’m only going to add my two cents by saying I wish that women were encouraged to think of the benefits of their jobs in a more tangible sense. Women (primarily) more than men are sold the ‘emotional fulfillment’ line as a way to supplement the reality of the lesser income.
But, I’ll tell you one thing – from being in the nonprofit and super for-passion world…. nothing says THANK YOU like some extra zeros on my paycheck. And I’m not talking about selling out. I’m talking about being appreciated. And honestly – the whole ‘we’re nurturers and we give without getting’ thing that women do to themselves is TOTALLY us (women) using some made up, socially correct moral high ground to look down on a lady who is goin’ to get hers.
There is nothing wrong with making money. There is nothing wrong with taking less money because you’re working on your passion. There is nothing wrong with being a mom whose compensation is a complicated mass of societal head nodding and baby smiles.
There IS something wrong with women who pressures/guilts/finger wags at another woman (or person, really) for pursuing, fully, the means by which they are the most fulfilled. It’s all a balance, really – no one salary, nor job title would make me 100% happy without lots of other factors in the mix… I imagine we’re all the same kind of complex.
September 23, 2010 2:36 pm
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F*cking yes.
September 23, 2010 3:01 pm
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This post helped me get off my booty and apply for a job at a company I REALLY love (in a new city where we want to live!) but was worried I was not qualified. I AM qualified, would do an awesome job, and really want to work there. So…thanks. :)
September 23, 2010 2:37 pm
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I relied on this site to keep me sane while I prepared for my wedding (it did btw) and actually thought I might be addicted when I started to check in after the wedding, but today I know why I come back…because beyond the wedding, this site is about so much more than I realized and I continue to gain insight on what is important to me. Thank you Meg.
September 23, 2010 2:39 pm
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Wow, is this ever timely. A few months ago I did a short contract with a company, worked my arse off, enjoyed it a lot, and walked away to cries of “please can she stay?!”. Since then I’ve been back on the unemployment line (except I don’t qualify for benefits, seeing as I am a foreigner). Earlier this week, the company emailed me to ask if I was interested in having the job on a permanent basis. For less money. The contract is actually the same – same benefits, same entitlements (sick leave etc) as the previous contract, it’s just less money. More responsibility, less money. I agonised over it for hours and hours (and a whole sleepless night) and eventually wrote a very nice, polite email reply asking if there might be room in the package for an offer more commensurate with my experience (for the record, the salary was a basic starting wage, I have 6 years previous experience in the industry)? I was quite literally shaking as I pressed send, I thought I was going to puke. Because, truthfully? I am so in debt and so broke I’d have taken the first offer, but I forced myself to value my skills more than that. That was Tuesday.
The response? Complete, and total, silence.
I tell myself they are considering their options, weighing up their next move. In my heart I’m thinking “oh sh*t, I scared them off, and now I’m back to eating beans and noodles.”
I have found the experience enlightening. I moved continents about a year ago to pursue what I though were more exciting career options overseas. And while it’s true that the industry (publishing) is a hundred times bigger and more diverse here (UK) than at home (AUS) it’s also true that it’s more competitive. What I don’t get, is that salary levels are about a third of what they are back home. And not by exchange rate, by taking into account cost of living and all the rest. Time and time again I’ve been struck by the attitude of employers that is almost as if you should be thanking them for singling you out as worthy of working for them, big, prestigious Company xyz of the publishing glitterati. As if being able to claim it on your CV should be enough for you. And while I understand the concept of working for next to nothing to gain invaluable experience, there’s a point at which that simply becomes exploitative. It’s no coincidence that publishing is a female-dominated industry, at least at my level. And there is no doubt that these companies devalue their employees because we let them. Here I am hoping like hell that someone will pay me considerabley less than a third of what I was earning when I left Aus. It will be interesting to see how much this company values me.
September 23, 2010 3:32 pm
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I’ve got my fingers crossed for you!!!
September 23, 2010 7:14 pm
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Well… Clearly you do not hang out with lawyer chicks. Undervaluing your worth in terms of salary does not seem to be a huge problem. (Though we have dozens of other issues…) : )
Although then again, there are enormously fewer female partners then the ratio of female-to-male lawyers would suggest, and underpaid public interest law skews heavily female. So maybe devaluing one’s contribution does still go on. Hard to say though whether these choices mean you are “undervaluing” your worth or rather simply making a lifestyle choice for better life-work balance or to do advocacy you believe is socially beneficial. (Of course I could unpack this further and ask why do women disproportionately make this lifestyle choice if not for the ideals of being more nuturing, more selfless, more available to family… How much of this is a true “choice” based on bedrock ideals, how much is to assuage our own guilt that is to some extent a product of socialization or of unequal expectations in terms of male/female familial involvement? I don’t know. At some point you are going in circles.)
September 23, 2010 3:49 pm
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My husband is a lawyer, I do hang out with lawyer chicks. The fact is, the market is so bad here that the majority of the Top 5 Law School grads we know are jobless, so words like “partner” and “big paycheck” are not often heard. “I’ll take anything” and “they aren’t paying me but they’ll let me work for free” is what you hear A LOT. And these kids went to a great school. It’s tragic. But don’t get me started.
September 23, 2010 7:08 pm
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Also, in “big law” the gender disparity isn’t such an issue, at least at the associate level, because all the first years come in at the same salary (and get regular, defined steps up from there). If you are interviewing at a big firm, you know going in what every one in your “class” is going to be making. This doesn’t solve the “not enough women are partners” issue, but I do think that it means that female lawyers going into corporate law are starting on a much more even playing field.
September 23, 2010 7:53 pm
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True. The lockstep compensation may lead to greater empowerment (or entitlement) of female associates. It may also be that knowing what everyone makes – not only at your firm, but pretty much in all the “big law” firms in the city – allows for much more open conversation about salary and the “worth” of one’s work. I haven’t been in a big firm for several years, but I remember all associates – male & female equally – frequently b*tching about salaries, and particularly bonuses, and heaven forbid if bonuses were given out unevenly in the firm, or if a competitor firm gave out higher ones. On the one hand, given the inflated salaries of the ’00s, this was appalling, on the other hand, I guess coming from a bunch of young women, it was also somewhat refreshing.
September 24, 2010 6:56 am
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Oh, I just love this. That’s all. You are awesome.
September 23, 2010 4:09 pm
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Meg, if I’m honest, this post both challenges and terrifies me. I think I need to go do some serious thinking this weekend.
September 23, 2010 5:38 pm
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“I want to own my own business and write and publish and go on trips, and experience things and… and, and, and.” And then David, being the saner of the two, points out that doesn’t mean I’m selfish, that means I’m ambitious and self-aware. And that being ambitious and active and happy is what will make me a GOOD mom. That crushing all my dreams so I could give up all myself for my child would probably NOT make me a very good mom, since it would make me a very sad person.”
I used to believe all this too! I used to say the exact same thing. That ambitious me = best mom.
So I feel compelled to tell you: It’s not true.
I also feel compelled to start wearing a T-shirt that says YOUR 401K IS NOT YOUR IDENTITY, but nevermind that for now.
Here’s the thing. Being ambitious and active does not make you a good mother. Chasing every dream you’ve ever had does not make you a good mother. Loving your child, providing for your child, protecting your child — these and a million other things make you a good mom.
I understand that what you really mean is that you don’t want to be a resentful mom. And it’s very smart to realize that, because resentful moms are a bad lot. But it still doesn’t mean that chasing every dream and living some mythical fullest version of yourself (chaser mom) will make you a better mom than the one who allegedly gives up dreams (bitter mom). Because chaser mom can’t do it all. In the quest for constant dream achievement, someone needs to raise the kid (fulltime job) or make the money to pay for someone else to help raise the kid. Have you ever met kids who were profoundly aware they weren’t their parents’ first, second or third priority? Kids who felt like they had to compete against a parent’s hobby, career or possession for attention? These are not happy kids.
Before you think it sounds like you’re screwed either way:
The thing is, life doesn’t stop when you have a kid. In the past few months, I’ve traveled across the country several times, completed several chapters of a writing project, kept a vegetable garden, etc., all while also caring for a baby fulltime. I have a lot I’d still like to do in my life, and a child isn’t holding me back. What’s always lost in all the feminist talk about how important self-worth and identity and achievement etc etc is — and I say this as a feminist — is for goodness sakes, having kids can be incredibly fun and fulfilling. Having my baby is better than any career brass ring I achieved, better than any far-flung passport stamp I achieved. Having a baby also doesn’t mean my passport and resume died.
And you’ve heard it a million times and it’s a cliche, but hell if I didn’t find it true when I thought it wouldn’t apply to me: When you have the baby, you may well care less about all those other things. That is not a sad death of a prior self (which is what it once sounded like to me). It’s an incredibly liberating reassessment of priorities.
You can “amount to a lot” (whatever that is supposed to mean) — and live a wild, rich life — with kids.
September 23, 2010 5:54 pm
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“Being ambitious and active does not make you a good mother.”
Literally, if that were true, we would not have kids. End of story.
So yes, I get what your saying, we grow and change with kids, kids add to our lives not subtract, and of course we can’t have it all. BUT. Men don’t get asked to give up their ambitions for their families, ever. Maybe they change their work hours, but that’s about it. Will I slow my life down for kids? Make my hours more flexible for kids? Heck yeah. Will I stop being ambitious and active working for myself? Hell no, and I don’t think you have to be. If I had to pick between staying home for my kids first year and writing a book, I’d pick writing a book. My kid is not going to remember that year anyway, and they are going to remember a happy mom. So we’d make adjustments and make sure they had good care, and make it work. That’s not for everyone, but it is for lots of people.
My mother-in-law ran her own business, earned triple what her husband did, was super successful, was home with her kids one day a week and worked the rest, and was super ambitious and active. Her kids turned out well enough that I married one. And I’d think they would argue that her being who she was (ambitious, active) was every bit as important to her being a good mom as her being protective.
So. That’s my perspective.
September 23, 2010 7:17 pm
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Amen, Meg!
As the daughter of an incredibly ambitious and hugely successful single mom (who really had to work hard at things other than being a mom to become so successful), I agree wholeheartedly. Even though she wasn’t like my friends’ moms… she was the best mom in the whole wide world.
September 23, 2010 7:29 pm
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I don’t think that’s true at all, about men. I’ve watched my boss give up promotions or the opportunity to move offices because of his kids, I’ve seen my brother’s career slow down considerably so he can take care of his kids, to the point where he’s not sure what step to take next. I know S. will put his career track on hold while we figure out the kid thing – everyone I know is pretty equal, partner-wise, and it DOES affect men’s lives quite a bit!
It would also make sense to establish that the very random concept of good mom / bad mom is going to be different for everyone. I personally would not leave my child in someone else’s care for the first year of it’s life – but that’s because it matters to me more than a career, and that’s a choice that would make ME a happy mom. As long as your child is loved, protected, and nurtured, who cares what else you’re doing?
September 24, 2010 9:54 am
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I don’t think it has to be true about men, but society doesn’t expect them to stop their ambitions. Of course it’s a choice, it’s a choice for both men and women, but if men choose to keep going to work and not slow down for their kids (like many men I know) society is fine with that, happy with that even. But if a woman makes that same decision, society often attacks her with judgment and concern over the well-being of her children. It just doesn’t always fit with the traditional roles of society, regardless of how much progress we have supposedly made.
September 24, 2010 11:58 am
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Maybe I just don’t know any men with high powered careers & children. Pretty much all the ones I know (including my father) made huge sacrifices to have children, and would be living very different lives now had they not had children. I guess I don’t pay enough attention to society!
September 24, 2010 2:28 pm
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Which is not to say that I disagree! Just that where I grew up you didn’t see it, and in my career path I haven’t come across too many people with children. Where I was raised, if you had a family, it didn’t matter what your gender was, it was more mouths to feed and it was tougher; sacrifices had to be made.
September 24, 2010 2:40 pm
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i’m not sure i agree, sera. i think the pressure is on both sexes (i’m thinking of the song “cat’s in the cradle.” absentee-fatherhood is often demonized.) and it’s not necessarily healthy for either- or for wee ones, of course- for us to expect the world to stop when kiddos pop out.
September 24, 2010 6:16 pm
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I think every woman has her own list of “musts” when it comes to caring for a baby or raising a child. That’s why women hurt each others feeling so easily – we don’t have the same list.
September 24, 2010 7:33 pm
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but. is it always just the extremes?
ti have many, many, many goals. lots. and there’s no way in hell i’m gonna accomplish them all (sorry meg, i think i’m saying the opposite of your post there).
but “chasing dreams” and “building dreams into feasible possibilities” are not the same. and i know how many hours are in a day and a general idea of what i can accomplish in that day. so no, i’m not hunting down higher ed while being primary breadwinner. and when i have a kid on my breast, i won’t be in the classroom. but i do have certain goals that i can pursue while sitting at home on my rear with little one in the play pen. it’s a matter of intelligently finding a balance.
i question that it’s fair to encourage women to pursue both. but there are women who want both, and know how to manage both smartly. certainly some women can be fulfilled within just one realm (something i was remarking on a bit ago, even) but there are others who find ways to balance both. intelligently.
the real thing is- i’m going to give up some of my dreams to be a mom. and i gave up some of my dreams to be a wife. but i also gave up some of my dreams to be a teacher. to live in philly. EVERY choice in life is a trade-off. it’s my personal responsibility to myself and my family to find the fairest trade-off and to figure out how i can achieve the most goals while sacrificing the least.
September 23, 2010 8:21 pm
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But why is it women who can’t realistically do both, while we never question that men can? Because dear lord, David’s more domestic than I am, and I’m the one with her own business. We’ll be *sharing* childcare duties. I’m not sure that I expect to give up more than he does. Yeah, if I breast-feed, things will be wonky for a while, but I expect we’ll both give up stuff, and we’ll both gain stuff, and we’ll both keep doing stuff.
Anyway, I think what I realized through this comment thread is that *for me* giving up being ambitious and active literally means giving up the core of who I am. Not everyone is like that, but I happen to be, and always have been. So am I going to give up the core of who I am for kids? NO. WAY. That would not be a favor to anyone.
AND! I just talked to David about his ambitious and active mom. He pointed out that all reasonably good parents are loving and protective, so that is sort of a given. But, beyond that, he thinks that his mom being really successful was a huge positive influence on his life. He thinks her being ambitious and active was part of what made her a good mom. So, there is that.
September 23, 2010 9:31 pm
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well, i didn’t intend to say that josh hasn’t made sacrifices. or that he won’t because he already has and an integral part of the Post Baby plan is his future sacrifice. like i said- marriage, baby, moving, picking a career. all choices require a trade. and that goes for men AND women.
by saying i have given up/will give up dreams i don’t mean that i give up any piece of myself. i’m not giving up being ambitious or creative or socially active. i just alter and adjust the ways in which i do those things- and sometimes that requires sacrifice. (if only in the immediate)
i want to live in philly. and i want to live in new york. and i want to live in spain. all of which i clearly can’t do at once. but by choosing to live in philly, in no way am i giving up a piece of myself or losing a dream- i’m just trading. and meanwhile, it doesn’t mean i won’t one day do the other two, also.
i was responding to emily because i felt her comment made the whole decision into an “either/or” type thing. either you’re a mom or you’re a “dream chaser.” when really, a practical, intelligent woman can make dreams into feasible realities while maintaining a happy mother/child relationship and healthy marriage. and a practical man can, too. making sacrifices isn’t always the same as losing oneself and “chasing dreams” isn’t always selfish.
September 23, 2010 9:51 pm
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I’m not saying don’t be ambitious. I still am. Lots done, lots more to do! Just not this year. Life is long. Everything I’d like to experience does not need to be crammed into my 31st year. In all fairness, I did do a lot of traveling and career stuff before children, so that has helped prevent wistful “what if” feelings. But if you’re a creative and passionate person, and it sounds like everyone is, that list of places to go and things to see will always get longer. That’s good. But I can’t wait til 60 to have a child.
Having children and making them a priority for awhile doesn’t mean everything else gets erased. But trying to do everything at once is a guaranteed method for insanity. Ditto for men. If my husband wasn’t willing/able to make major changes to his life when we had children, we wouldn’t have them either.
It’s really easy to plan what life will be like when you have kids when you don’t have them yet. Everyone does this, lots of people here are doing this, I did this. Go ahead and make your statements and ultimatums before you have kids, but they aren’t worth much other than an interesting theoretical discussion. There is a reason people says kids change everything. It will. That’s *not* always a bad thing. It can be a great thing. You will do things you never expected to do.
I’m not posting this to argue. This was actually my first visit to this blog. I just recognize a slightly younger version of myself and my friends in the post in some of the comments, and I suppose it’s frustrating to read people talk about something they haven’t experienced. We are all ambitious feminists. And still are. But we’re eating some crow these days now that we have kids, because we weren’t very open-minded when we made all those statements, and are finding that taking a few years off to raise kids is not actually some soul-crushing identity crisis. Life is … totally fine.
September 24, 2010 6:02 am
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Also, this statement? Is the sort moms find hilarious.
“If I had to pick between staying home for my kids first year and writing a book, I’d pick writing a book. My kid is not going to remember that year anyway, and they are going to remember a happy mom. So we’d make adjustments and make sure they had good care, and make it work. That’s not for everyone, but it is for lots of people.”
Post a follow-up to that one once you have a 1-year-old.
It’s possible that’s exactly what will happen. But it’s also possible that YOU won’t want to miss the first year because it’s so special to YOU, even if your child won’t “remember it anyway.” It’s possible you’ll look at the baby and fall so in love, you’ll decide the book will wait. It’s possible you won’t be able to afford this “good care” you speak of, or that you’ll decide no care you can buy is better than your care. It’s possible you’ll be too exhausted, or life will be too complicated, to make the magical “adjustments” you’re thinking of. Oh, and someone’s told you guys breastfeeding a newborn takes 12 hours a day, right?
Anyway, I know better than trying to make a point to someone who doesn’t have a kid yet. People tried to do the same with me and I didn’t get it either. I’m done now. But thanks for the chat! Best of luck to everyone. :)
September 24, 2010 6:14 am
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I’m replying to Emily’s post below.
I know kids who spent their first couple of years in a different country from mom – with grandparents. And these kids are very close to mom now. Ironically don’t like the grandparents at all due to their behavior towards mom.
I don’t know, my mom expects me and my husband to drop the kids off at her house for summers. She’s had kids…so I believe her that this is feasible. And as a kid I always knew I my sister and my father were the center of her world. But she sure didn’t stay home with me – and would never advise me to do so.
Not every mother is hung up on not missing a minute of their kids growing. IMO most of the angst comes from moms who haven’t actually experienced being away from their babies. Its hard leaving them at first because you’ve bonded so strongly but if you do either because of necessity or desire, it becomes a lot easier and not really a big deal.
As not moms yet we don’t know how we will feel its true. And a few of us might change our minds. But – this is as obnoxious as telling women who don’t want kids that they’ll change their mind – a few will – but many many won’t.
September 24, 2010 7:58 am
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Emily,
I’m shutting down part of this discussion as not ok. You’re new here, so you don’t know the APW rules of commenting, so that’s totally fine. But here is the thing, since we’re all about respect, and about being a super safe space for women to explore ideas, I’m shutting down this idea that you don’t want women without kids to not make statements about what they want, or that you find statements of women pre-kids laughable. Those are not ok statements to make here.
No one’s statements are laughable, and you have to remember, you don’t know me or anyone else commenting in person. Trust me, if you quoted what I just said to ALLLLL the women in my life who have kids, they would look you in the eye and say, “Yup, that’s Meg and she’s correct.” But you don’t know me, and we all need to remember that it’s easy to tell someone you don’t know on the internet that you know better, but NONE of us know better. It’s about each of us growing and changing and finding our own truth, not judging each others comments.
More generally, I really don’t like the female impetus to divide ourselves into groups. It’s not moms vs. not-moms, it’s not pre-wedding vs. post-wedding. It’s wisdom sharing, and knowing we’re all a team. And we never ever ever use, “Oh, you’ll seeee” statements. Those are damaging. We’re working at expanding the models for what’s possible here, not limiting each other by our own experiences.
And this is for everyone, not just for Emily. I just know that most of you know all this already.
Thanks for being awesome commenters! Sorry I had to do a rare step-in. Now back to it.
Meg
September 24, 2010 9:22 am
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I’m just finally catching up on this discussion, which I find endlessly fascinating. You already know, Meg, that I am a full-time working professional woman with two kids, an ex husband, and a fiance.
There are times when I am better at balancing (or juggling?) all of these roles than others. In my experience, working in what was once a largely male-dominated profession, the men seem to have a few things going for them (this is a total generalization) that the women do not. I have noticed that, as a general rule, men in my profession are better at compartmentalizing different parts of their lives than the women. When there are problems at home, men seem to be able to leave those problems at home and keep on functioning just fine at work, while women — I am one example but not alone in this — have a much harder time shutting out the domestic turmoil. There are, of course, plenty of exceptions to this. Men who have left my company in order to have more time to spend with their differently abled children, and women who have taken on a traditionally masculine role of power-earner while their husbands stayed home to raise and care for the house.
But taking on a traditionally masculine work persona was not an option for me for many reasons. First, I could not seem to compartmentalize my life. The noise and turmoil followed me to work. Second, I have a bit of a split personality — go-getter take charge executive and ooey gooey cookie baking kissy mama at home. I love both of these women, and I have no interest in giving up either one. Ergo, as much as part of me wanted to stay home all day everyday with my infant daughter, I instead went back to work. Some days I am happy with my decision; others, I long to be more available to my kids during my work day.
This does not make me a good mom, a bad mom, a good worker or a bad worker. It just is. There are choices that we make. I am proud that the other day, while my daughter and I were walking, she said to me, “You’re doing a very good job working so hard so that we can earn money to buy plane tickets to visit” our friend who has cancer and lives far away. This kid of mine — she is going to grow up understanding what it means to work to support her family, to find a career that is meaningful to her, and how to balance her career with her love for her family. I have lofty goals for her, and I am proud to be her role model.
September 24, 2010 5:07 pm
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Late to the party, but I’ve got to say that I don’t think it’s just women who “can’t have both.” It’s just that for men, the choice has, generally, not been between “staying home to take care of the family” and “realizing career ambitions,” it’s been between “working to take care of the family” and “realizing career ambitions.” And rather than not questioning that men can do both, we tend to assume that men will bite the bullet and give up on their dreams/ambitions/passions to take care of their families. Kind of like we do with women. It’s sort of equal-opportunity sacrifice for the sake of the kids, though it has tended to take different forms for different genders.
Anecdotally:
-My grandfather, who in the 50s gave up his shot to play pro baseball because he wouldn’t be able to support a wife and family on a minor league ball player’s salary. Did he go to work every day, and have a career? Yes. Did he realize his career ambitions? No. His ambition was not to be an accountant, it was to be a baseball player. And he was someone who might have had a chance, too. But he couldn’t both take care of his family and pursue that ambition.
-A family friend, who in the 70s wanted to be a sports coach. It was what he went to school for. But his new wife was pregnant, entry level jobs didn’t pay enough to support their family, and so he went into the family business, where he went to work every day, at a job he didn’t have passion for, for thirty years, until his youngest was in college and he could finally afford to close the family business and take a job that interested him. He had a career, but he gave up his career ambitions, because he couldn’t both take care of his family and pursue that ambition.
We don’t see men as culture warriors, so their choices carry less cultural baggage. But just as women are expected to be nurturers, men are expected to be providers, and dreams and ambitions can end up taking a back seat to both sets of expectations. I think the moral of the story is probably that parenthood is a sacrificial undertaking, for everyone involved.
September 27, 2010 10:55 pm
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True, true, true. But I’m not saying that anyone can have it all, I don’t think you can. I’m coming from a “how can we have enough”? Place. And I think that can happen for both genders.
September 28, 2010 6:52 am
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I think part of the problem is the way the issue of work/life balance is sometimes framed: as “having it all.” That’s a bit of a strawman. I don’t think Meg was arguing that a Mom can or should pursue every single dream she ever had at the same time, in the same year – with baby in tow. But I think that even with a baby, women can (and do!) stay the course in terms of their *principal* career goal (or avocational goal). I personally know women with babies/young kids who are: (1) still finishing their grad degrees, (2) finishing their medical residencies, (3) are still on partnership track, (4) pursuing their academic careers/publishing, (5) continuing to advance in same job. Yes, most take a break of sorts for the first 3+ months, and have had to sacrifice other activities. And certainly they can’t chase ALL their dreams simultaneously – i.e. they are not going to be finishing their residency, living in Spain, starting a jewelry company, learning Chinese, AND raising a baby. And of course I have friends who decide that they *do* want to focus on raising their baby for some amount of time instead of staying “on track” in their career – which is great! But I don’t buy that mothers have to give up their “top dream” – there is just too much evidence out there indicating that this is not the case.
September 24, 2010 7:31 am
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Yes!!
I actually *don’t* think we can have it all. But, the point of my post was (since we’re way off track here), that being selfless is not what makes us good mothers, wives, and people, no matter how many times we’re told that it does. Being self-full is what makes us good people. And part of that is being aware of what makes us tick.
I think we’re told your FIRST priority is to be THE BEST MOM YOU CAN BE. I think that your priorities should be, in no particular order: to raise a healthy kid (eff being the best mom ever), and to be a good/happy/fulfilled person. You can argue that being a good/happy/fulfilled person doesn’t make you a better mother (though I would disagree), but my point is being a mother does not have to be the central point of reference, the thing that we sublimate everything else to. It can be part of who we are, and another part can be just being ourselves and being fulfilled.
Cate Subrosa, as always, does a wonderful job of talking about that from a been-there-done-that perspective. As does Maggie Mason and Marie-Eve, and a million other smart women populating the web.
September 24, 2010 9:30 am
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I both agree with Emily and completely disagree.
“Being ambitious and active does not make you a good mother. Chasing every dream you’ve ever had does not make you a good mother. Loving your child, providing for your child, protecting your child — these and a million other things make you a good mom.”
Agree. But Emily seems to be saying that being ambitious and active makes you a bad mother – and with that I disagree completely. I don’t think being ambitious and active makes you better for the kid – I think it makes you better for yourself and doesn’t make it worse for the kid. So.
I think I’d be a good mother if I stayed home, took a 9-5 job that wasn’t challenging or stressful. But I think I’ll be a good mother ambitiously pursuing my dreams. And I think I’ll be a better person doing the second. And being a good awesome person is as important to me as being a good mother.
September 24, 2010 7:52 am
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Y’all. I’m kind of sad that when the word mom comes up, it derails the whole discussion. I’m kind of tired of debating the working versus non-working mom thing, because both of them are good choices for different people. That’s all. The fact is I have work that I love (APW) and I don’t really want to give that up after so much hard work. That’s all I was saying. Because really, I just wanna talk about self worth and money right now.
September 24, 2010 5:43 pm
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You absolutely do NOT have to give up work you love to be a good parent. Period. Adjustments will need to be made, and you will occasionally have to do some juggling and ask someone else (er, David?) to help, but it is absolutely doable, and don’t let anyone tell you it’s not.
September 24, 2010 7:25 pm
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What interesting though is that I see this conversation – though perhaps not some of the less constructive bits : ) – as definitely tied to the question of women’s self-worth and money. Essentially when we talk about ambition and motherhood, we are often talking about market (compensated) work and motherhood, and whether women, even mothers, are permitted to really value their contribution in the market, given that raising children is supposed to be (and in many senses *is*) women’s highest calling. And, perhaps more importantly, how much we as a society are comfortable valuing mothers’ market work given the needs of their children. Afterall, many already deem those mothers who also want personal “fullfilment” as “bad,” imagine how much worse the judgment would be if the issue was framed as mothers also wanting a well-deserved fat paycheck, respect from the peers in her field, fame because of her professional/academic/artistic contributions. Y’know, all those things that come of producing work that is valued.
September 27, 2010 9:05 am
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[...] all these mind-blowing ideas about women using blogging to empower themselves and other women, and to share money within their communities, and to throw each other weddings and write life lists and in general challenge and support each [...]
September 23, 2010 6:29 pm
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I seriously am going to forward this post to EVERYONE. You are awesome!
September 23, 2010 7:02 pm
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Great topic thanks Meg. I live in Aus and just heard a segment on the youth oriented radio station here (Triple J) yesterday about the same idea – particularly about asking for raises and how in many cases women are paid less than men because they aren’t asking for them! One female caller to the show said that when she finally got up the courage to ask her salary was increased by 35% on the spot! and another was raised by $20k! and the expert they had on the show said as others here have that it often starts from when they are hired – men negotiate and women often don’t, so they start off behind. Definately something to keep in mind!
September 23, 2010 7:29 pm
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What I find difficult is the whole “women have to DEMAND more, and PUSH more and DO MOOOOOOORE” in order to get more money. At the same time, women are taught to be caring and humble, think about others first and so on. So it’s very difficult to demand more, because you are immediately labeled as a pushy and aggressive woman, and this is not very flattering. “You are not behaving like a woman should.”
So this lead to more requirements and pressure, and many feel that the need to be demanding and “get what you are worth” will just be another addition to their list of failures. It’s our own fault for not earning more.
Perhaps it’s not just women’s responsibility to make sure that they get paid for what they do, perhaps it’s the job of the people in power (usually men) to acknowledge and value “female” characteristics and traits as much as “male” ones and give people the salary they deserve? Or is it just women’s task to sort out equality? Because women tend to be busy with working at a underpaid job, taking care of a family, planning a wedding, doing unpaid household work and attempting to look very sexy while doing it, it’s easy that the “change the world”-part gets pushed down to the bottom of the to-do list.
September 24, 2010 2:11 am
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It’s everyone’s task.
But since I am personally a woman, I tend to focus on what women can do about it. I don’t see any point in waiting around for someone else to give me a raise, when I can ask for it myself.
And really, the more women who ask for raises and promotions and become the people in power and are then in a position to give other women raises and are busting all the myths of what women “should” be while they do it… that’s what’s going to change the system.
I mean, yeah, being female in a patriarchial society sucks, and it’s hard, and part of our struggle is trying to not blame ourselves for the faults of the system. But it’s certainly worthwhile anyway.
September 24, 2010 9:57 am
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yeah, marina- you sorta said what i was gonna.
it’s not my responsibility to “change the world” (though i do damn well try in my own way) but it IS my responsibility to ensure that i’m treated appropriately. and it’s awesome if by doing so, i can encourage a system wherein others are treated appropriately. woman or not.
September 24, 2010 11:56 am
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What I was trying to get to was that I don’t believe it’s an individual choice to be paid more. It’s not just to go in and demand it, because many of us can’t just go in and demand it. Either we work in “female areas” that pay less (health care, teaching, organizational jobs and so on) and we wont get paid as much as lower educated “masculine areas” (electricians, carpenters and so on). Or, we have the typical female characteristics that aren’t as valued as male ones, and therefore, our bosses don’t think we deserve to get a raise.
To then say “just ask for it” just encourages women to put their heads down, work even more harder and hope that somehow it will pay off. It will for some, but never for many. Women’s self worth, women’s salaries and inherent bad self esteem need to be dealt with at a structural level, it can never be solved by one individual.
I don’t think APW should read Elizabeth Gilbert as the next book club book, you should all read Barbara Ehrenreich’s Smile or Die.
September 28, 2010 5:44 am
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That’s true up to a point (or definitely can be), but remember I was clear I was writing this from a freelancer’s perspective. When you run your own business, salaries can be solved by one individual… the CEO. You.
September 28, 2010 6:50 am
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Why do I want to burst into tears every time I read a post on APW?? I guess because everything seems to touch me in a profoundly real way.
I struggle with these questions daily. I work at a job I HATE for very little money. And I’m sticking with it until I get married so I can get the health insurance (and I can’t even imagine how trapped I’d feel if my partner were same-sex and I didn’t have that option).
Anyway, when we’re chronically undervalued (men and women, I bet), we start to believe that we’re not really worth any more money as an employee. Hell, I’m starting to believe it, and I KNOW it’s b.s.
I’m trying to find something else that values my skills and attributes, but it’s pretty hard to find jobs here at the moment.
I may have to bookmark this post for re-reading later, when I have a job that has, you know, raises and promotions.
September 24, 2010 6:17 am
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Yes, I agree, but I’d go further to say that on a cultural level, women tend to be afraid of power or having power or being powerful and money, having a sense of self-worth, knowing how to ask or demand for more and actually doing those things ARE related to power and define power and are essentially culturally male. In other words, women get cultural cues from birth that we must settle for whatever we are given because by being powerful we are not being women. Men, interestingly, are told the exact opposite — that to be men, they MUST be powerful. But we as women have internalized these cultural cues to a great extent and as a result, we don’t have to let other people disempower and devalue us; we do it for them ourselves.
We see examples of this in the real world when women negotiate their salaries and the powers that be, even when THEY are also women, raise their eyebrows in surprise and don’t know quite how to respond. I could go on and on. I’m not Freudian by any means, but I do think our tendency to devalue ourselves when it comes to money is intimately connected to our fear to be powerful. Because that could mean all kinds of things. And yes, we have examples of powerful women, but I still feel like each woman who does it when she does it, is on the road less travelled and that can be AWESOME and scary all at the same time. Because even with all of the awesome powerful women that we have “doing their thing” as I like to say, being a woman in a position of power (of your life, your career, etc) is still a novelty for a lot of us and we don’t quite know how to navigate that or handle it.
September 24, 2010 7:52 am
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Apologies, didn’t mean to offend or break rules.
September 24, 2010 10:17 am
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Thanks Emily, I really appreciate it. I’m actually totally facinated in 99% of what you have to say, so keep sayin’ it!!!
September 24, 2010 1:22 pm
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I never have time to read all the amazing comments anymore so I’ve neglected posting. It’s almost OCD that I feel I have to read all of them before I can say something. I see them as a conversation, and I want to be part of the conversation. But, today… Today I just want to say that you just wrote a post for me. As if you took it directly from my mind and had it make sense on “paper”. That’s why I read you every day. Or at least, as much as I can now that life has gotten insanely busy. I can’t wait to hear more on this topic.
September 24, 2010 11:08 am
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You’ll seeee… does not create a safe environment, it shuts down discussion because women are told that those who aren’t mothers aren’t allowed to make valuable contributions.
If you want to parent someday you better do X (what I want) does not create a safe environment either and is very much not conductive to discussion. It is condescending in the extreme.
I’m writing as someone who has actually felt that this blog is a little closed to criticism in the past – but this current example is not one of those times.
Meg can either cater to you and Emily and a couple more people or she can cater to the dozens who will not post and talk if you and Emily have your way – because they won’t feel welcome.
Lastly, even if Meg’s policy did come down to “blind obedience or don’t show your face here!” there is nothing really wrong with that. Its her blog and it serves a need. Offering her ‘advice’ makes little sense. If you wish she did things differently for your own benefit at least be honest about it.
September 24, 2010 11:55 am
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i didn’t find emily’s comment to disagree with meg- though many others did. (mine at a few points, i think, even)
i found emily’s comment to insult me personally (no hard feelings, emily, it’s just the internet) as a 5-months-pregnant lady who yes, is “theorizing” about how this child will impact my life and what i am going to do in response. being told that i “just don’t know yet” is far from helpful at a point where i’m making make-or-break decisions and trying to establish a solid foundation for my family.
i’m a married lady and i think the majority of the readers on here are engaged or dating or not even looking. yet, when theories about marriage or guesses at what marriage will be like someday are proposed by folks who “aren’t there yet” i have no grounds to tell them, “oh, you’ll see…” because one person’s acquired experiences in no way can predict the experiences of others.
so no. i didn’t find meg to be shutting down disagreement (i actually sorta think the lady likes a bit of controversy and argument- it’s okay, meg, i have that streak, too). i interpreted her response as a defense of others, like me, who yeah. don’t have kids yet. but don’t need to be told that we’re clueless for that reason.
September 24, 2010 12:04 pm
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Liz, I wish I could hit the “exactly” button about 50 times on what you just said. One person’s experience is not a perfect predictor of how things will go for others in their situation.
Imagine if us married ladies responded to every comment and post by newly-engaged women with “awww, you think you can do X with your wedding, that’s hilarious! But actually that’s impossible. You’ll see.” That’s belittling, and it wouldn’t create a very safe space for discussion. I do think it’s really helpful for those who have been there to share their own experiences (“I wanted to do X too, but I ended up not doing it for these reasons”), but that’s different from saying “you’re wrong and I’m right because I’m already married/I already have kids.”
September 25, 2010 8:30 pm
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Al, this is a completely unfair comment. Meg’s reply was not about feeling personally attacked or demanding that no one ever disagree with her. It was the particular “You’ll see I’m right once you have kids” remarks that are not okay on this blog.
September 24, 2010 12:05 pm
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Mean comments tend to go away, so moving on. And thanks. Liz is right, I love me some disagreement. It’s just that it’s my blog, so I get to set the tone of *how* we disagree. I know that’s tough, but so it goes. I’ve put enough of my life into APW at this point that I’m pretty comfortable with getting to make the rules.
And sometimes I close comments not because disagreement is wrong, but because people are attacking me personally in comments and emails you don’t see, and making me cry. I’m imperfect like that. So in sum, disagree all you want, just do it in a super safe and supportive way. And discussing all the ways you think I’m a bad person is ALWAYS off the table for discussion. Oh well.
Ok, back to the topic at hand, ya’ll!
September 24, 2010 1:31 pm
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Awesome. Simply awesome.
September 24, 2010 2:55 pm
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Wow, this is a really helpful post to me! I identify very closely with the feeling selfish part. I always said that I thought I was too selfish to be a mom, and I still say it. My list is similar to yours, Meg: I want a successful career, I want to travel the world, I want to write a book, I want to make my own money, the list goes on. But you made me think about whether these things really ARE selfish or not. I mean, my boyfriend-practically-fiance has a lot of the same goals, and he in no way thinks he is too selfish to be a dad. So why am I the selfish one?
I realized that it must be the cultural script, as Meg was saying. Women really are supposed to be the nurturers, especially of the weak! And since my talents and desires most definitely do not lie with children or being supreme nurturer (I can take care of my man, but that’s about it), I feel like I must be a selfish person. My boyfriend, though he likes to think the is open minded, is actually quite traditional and set-in-stone on many things (I tease him about this often). One day we happened to talk about having kids, and he said that if we had kids someday, he would want one of us (preferably me) to stay at home with the child for at least the first five years of it’s life (it’s his parent’s model, and he thinks it is “the best and right way to do things”). And that scared the hec out of me. You see, I’m the kind of person who would be supremely unhappy as a a stay-at-home mom, and he knows this; I need to mentally stimulate and push myself, I want a career and not just a job. I actually admire people who do stay at home with their children, because it is something that would be very difficult and stressful for me. But I felt so selfish for feeling this way, and it’s still something I struggle with. I’m still not sure if I should even have kids because of it (I really don’t want to stay at home). I felt a little lighter after I read this; it’s nice to know that I’m not a completely selfish person :)
September 25, 2010 11:43 am
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Lady! There are so many bad-ass working moms. Some people work in a job that’s flexible (that’s my goal… working for myself I can do a mix of daycare and not, and more to the point know that I’m free to pick up the baby if they get sick without asking anyone’s say so), and some working moms work 40 or 60 hour weeeks. I think we can’t kid ourselves that it’s easy, or that we can ‘have it all.’ But I do think we can find ways to find enough of what’s important.
I’m like you, I sink into depression really easily when I’m isolated or not frenetically busy, so the classic stay-at-home gig would not work well for me (in less I decided to go old school with no appliances or electricity and grew our own food and made our own soap… which when you think about it is what staying at home used to mean, workworkwork backbreaking work.) So, I need to weigh that when I make choices. But I think it’s RAD when we all have choices – that ladies who want to stay home can, that dads who want to stay home can, when those of us who want to work can make that happen.
The only thing I’d add is that to make things work, you have to have your partners support. If you’re going to try to ‘have enough’ your partner has to be on board (and willing to pick up a sick baby when you can’t…) So talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Boys can change their minds over time. I think all of us tend to think we want what we grew up with, and then over time realize, “Hey! Maybe something else would work better for my family.” So get him talking, and don’t be afraid to state what your needs are.
You’re NOT selfish. You’re awesome. Different.
September 26, 2010 11:02 am
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Thank you Meg.
Your feeling of being too “selfish” to be a good Mum totally resonantes with me. Its the argument I most often give my DF about why we should possibly reconsider thinking about kids.
Because my fears are rational. I fear I will resent my kids for stopping me doing things.
The only way to get through it is to take the risk I think. And hope. And trust that DF will keep me honest and sane. And have him promise to keep me to my promise to love him more than our kids.
And yes, I also see the lack of valuing self. I gave up job hunting because I had developed a complex that told me I was only worth what I was doing.
I got made redundant, and am now earning 50% more again than I was at that role. Still not even doing the work I really want to do, and that actually challenges me. I am astounded at what they will pay someone to do such simple work! Roll on the New Year, when the contract ends and I can throw myself into the next challenge – trying to sell some of my own photography as art :)
September 27, 2010 1:56 am
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Oh my god. I am doing the same thing. I have been wondering what my problem was… where is my ambition? No drive to do better. Thanks for clarifying my situation. It is nice to know it’s not just me, but I am not sure how to be brave and reach out for it. Still, actually stating the problem goes a long way toward fixing it. Thanks.
PS. I linked over from Maggie, who has been such a good influence (mostly – ha).
September 28, 2010 6:56 am
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I think I need to read your post several times to let it sink in and wash away all the doubts. I’ve been very frustrated lately and I think it is because I am hedging in my dreams with negative self-feedback. I want to be a full-time photographer. I want to know where I am going and pursuing it with a passion. I want to believe in what I love enough to fight for it. How in the world will I be able to afford the equipment I need if I don’t have the resources to purchase anything?
About a month ago, lightening struck near our home and sent an electric shock through to the computer. My photos were saved because they were on an external hard drive, but everything else was destroyed. It is a good thing that the office was empty at my day job because I sobbed like a baby believing that I was back at zero with my dreams. But that only lasted a day because my photography goals tormented me and I was unable to stop the work. So I chased clients with my camera and ignored the fact that I didn’t have a computer to process them. Today I am clawing my way out of this mess with a new computer and new programs. It is frustrating and slow, but I am still heading toward my dreams.
It is all about the struggle to grow, learn, build and begin to live life the way that we imagine. Worse than the financial problems we can encounter in our pursuits is the self-doubt. I am raising prices in January because I am worth it. And because my clients love me and I love them, I will provide them with a nice incentive for getting the word out to their friends and family.
September 28, 2010 12:13 pm
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Thank you so much for this. I’m 22, college-educated and working yet another retail position. Thankfully my wages seem to be climbing each time I change jobs, but just yesterday something interesting happened. My boyfriend, who just began his master’s/phd program in Chemistry (I got my b.a. in English), interrupted my money worrying by saying, “Do you think you could ask your boss for a raise? Even a dollar?” My response: “I really don’t think I’m performing well enough to ask for a raise.”
Whether or not this is true, I think it’s a pretty interesting exchange. Especially because it would not have even crossed my mind to ask for a raise, and to him it was such an obvious solution.
Every once in a while I have these beautiful moments of clarity where I am charged from my head to my toes with electric ambition, and then, in a matter of minutes or days, I do throw up those obstacles. It was so wonderful to read that other women have this problem. I thought my ambition-o-meter was broken!
Emily
September 28, 2010 1:38 pm
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[...] Meg: Here and Here [...]
September 30, 2010 4:26 pm
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I’m new to your blog and I love it! Reading this post was like reading a letter from a much wiser me. Self worth! Whodda thunk it. I think another obstacle for women is that we think we shouldn’t be talking about money. I was certainly raised that way. I see friends who either seem to be making more or saving more money than me. I wonder how they do it. Heaven forbid I ask! Thank you for opening up the discussion about money.
October 2, 2010 10:07 am
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Ladies, I am listening to your blogs and hearing still that you value yourselves based on monetary figures; which is valid, and immediate. But, we are worth so much more. In any area, we cannot limit ourselves with our own thinking, which is the important lesson. Becoming happy, and satisfied, in life, is not always tied to money. So limiting ourselves to a dollar salary, or a dollar worth, is only part of the equation.
My time is worth more to me than anything. When I volunteer that; it is a true gift. When I teach someone to fish, rather than giving them a fish, I have made a difference. My value then, whether compensated financially or not, is the true measure of my worth.
I’m not saying give your work and talents away; absolutely expect fair, un-gender-biased payment with no guilt. But understand that while happiness is linked to security; it does not stem from money. Good luck in all endeavors!!
October 2, 2010 2:22 pm
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Wow! Well its so refreshing to read something…so frank. I couldent agree or relate more to the above! Personally I think its probably the way you are bought up…not just a women thing. I know I work my arse off, feel guilty, don’t always no my end goal, too proud to ask for help, and generally wear myself into the ground! I’m defo in the same frame of mind regarding babies. In fact the ‘Im too selfish’ is a sentence thats past my lips too! On that subject its life changing and underneath I’m scared..that that will be it. But of course it won’t. Im waiting for that marternal thing to kick in… but I’m not that type of person.. but I do love kids. So moral to the story like you said is practicing being full-of-self, instead of selfless. Nothing else matters apart from you, hubbie and family xxxx
October 30, 2010 4:08 am
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[...] all these mind-blowing ideas about women using blogging to empower themselves and other women, and to share money within their communities, and to throw each other weddings and write life lists and in general challenge and support each [...]
November 9, 2010 7:38 am
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Hi there,
Thanks for writing this. I did post a blogpost about the same thing yesterday and was pointed out here by one of my readers. Thanks a bunch for sharing your thoughts. I feel the pain and hope you’re doing well money-wise (and in all others things too off course)
All my love,
Melissa
(belgium)
March 25, 2011 2:20 am
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[...] Read. Me. Now. [...]
April 7, 2011 7:32 am
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[...] wrote a post over at A Practical Wedding that got me thinking. And reminded me of the important, Part I post in her [...]
April 8, 2011 9:35 pm
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[...] Cecily, who writes at Uppercase Woman, this September at Mighty Summit. In fact, when I got back, I wrote about a conversation I had with Maggie and Cecily about money, that shook me up and made me take a harder look at [...]
April 24, 2011 6:41 pm
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[...] that I can’t quite shake. It came out of a conversation with Meg at A Practical Wedding, and this post in particular. She was writing about the self, and how women tend to undervalue themselves, and she [...]
December 22, 2011 12:41 pm
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