After I kicked off the good old APW Engagement discussion again (just a general newsflash: you don’t need a ring to be engaged.) Sarah sent me this, on behalf of the pre-engaged (Side note: I have a complicated history with this term. I think it’s bogus when people try to market to this mostly intangible demographic, but awfully empowering to realize that in this modern world, most of us go through a long period of time when we know a wedding is coming, but we can’t quite be bothered to get engaged yet.) But Sarah’s take is brilliant and empowering, and cuttingly smart. So in this month of traditional engagements, lets have a come-to-Jesus moment on what it means to be an empowered woman in a happy long-term relationship who does not happen to be engaged.
At a party the other night, I was standing around with a group of gals and a friend asked for advice. She had just started dating someone and she wanted to know the secret to my happy relationship. I’ve been dating my sweet boyfriend for three years and living together for one, and we’re about as happy as clams in saltwater.
I told her that it’s simple: we have fun together. He makes me laugh. I said our relationship works because we really, really like being together.
At this moment another friend said loudly to the group, “Well it’s not really working out for you guys. After all, you’re not engaged.”
Ouch. It stung, but not that badly. After all, I get some version of this comment, this shame-on-you-for-being-unengaged, at least a few times a week. Friends, family, coworkers, even strangers ask, “when are you planning to get married?” all the time. While it’s sweet that people recognize that we’re in love, it’s a one-way conversation. As a pre-engaged girl, I’m expected to keep my mouth shut and smile. If I say anything, be it “oh eventually, we’re very happy,” or “we’re planning on it” or (G-d forbid) “I’d like to get married,” then suddenly I’m pressuring him. The worst thing a pre-engaged girl can do is pressure him.
Frankly, I’m a little tired of all of it. And I know it’s not just me. So for all of us practical pre-engaged, and for my sanity, I write the following.
Dos and Dont’s For Friends of The Pre-Engaged
Don’t: Assume that I’m angry, bitter, jilted, lonely, sad or otherwise suffering. I count my blessings every single morning and night. I’ve found the love of my life and he loves me back. We’re planning our future together and spending as much as our present together as possible. I’m the happiest I’ve ever been in my whole life. Assuming that I’m upset because I’m not engaged is frustrating, because I can’t convince anyone otherwise. The more I insist that I’m happy, the more people tilt their head with a sad smile and, while rubbing my shoulder, sighing “oh don’t worry sweetie, the ring is coming.” It’s as if they think the longer it takes to get engaged, the less he loves me, and the more delusional I am. Be kind to the pre-engaged and use this line instead: “I’m so happy to see you like this! You’ve found the person you want to spend your life with. It only gets better from here.”
Do: Please encourage me to talk to my boyfriend about our future and delete the word “pressure” from your conversations about that. Call me new-fashioned, but I believe that as an educated woman in my late twenties with my own assets, ideas, experience and opinions, I shouldn’t be waiting on my partner to make one of the biggest decisions of our lives on his own. What if I have expectations about marriage based on my religion, values or traditions? Shouldn’t he know that before he proposes? What if I want to be the one to propose? What if I don’t want to get married? What if I have some debt that I want to pay off before we make it legal? What if he does? I fully believe that if this is someone that I legitimately want to spend the rest of my life with, I should be able to talk to him about anything. Talking about marriage is not “pressuring for a ring.” It is creating a sustainable relationship. I am not a coy, blushing girl waiting for my over-the-top surprise proposal. I’m ballsy and strong and independent. He loves me because I’m opinionated, so why would I hide my opinions about our future? I don’t. Honesty isn’t pressure.
Don’t: Please stop suggesting that I propose to him. Or that I make him a roast chicken. Or that I take him on vacation. Or that I should never have moved in with him. I’m not looking for a “solution” to my pre-engagement. Being pre-engaged is not a “problem.”
Do: If you’re engaged, please talk to me about your relationship, proposal, engagement ring, honeymoon, venue, traditions and veil, and let me ask questions without calling me pathetic or obsessed. Let me talk about whether or not to change my name. Let me ooh and ahh over your engagement ring and gush over your details. Let me ask you questions like “why did you/didn’t you do this/that?” Let me enjoy this blissful state where I can imagine that eloping to Paris is an option for us. Help me figure out what’s important to me before I have to actually make these decisions. Why not? If you want to talk about your wedding, chat away. I can listen to you talk about wedding details for hours, because I know that your experience will make my life easier down the road. But please, under no circumstances imply that I’m jealous. It’s not a competition.
Don’t: Please don’t apologize and look at me sympathetically when news of someone else’s engagement reaches me. There aren’t a finite amount of engagements and this girl hasn’t “stolen” mine from me. Seriously. Let me be happy for that couple without looking at me as if “thou protest too much.”
Do: Last of all, please be nice to my boyfriend. Tell my mom how well he treats me. Tell me how much you like him. Treat him like a grown up. He doesn’t need or want you to make “excuses” for him. He hasn’t done anything wrong. He doesn’t need to hear that people think he has commitment issues, doesn’t love me, can’t afford a ring, isn’t mature enough, or “is just not that into” me. What he wants is for me to be happy. That’s why he’s the one for me.
Kurt Vonnegut wrote, “Freud said he didn’t know what women wanted, but I do. They want a whole lot of people to talk to. What do men want? They want a lot of pals, and they wish that people wouldn’t get so mad at them.” This pretty much sums it up. Talk to me and let me talk about my future. Encourage me to talk to my boyfriend. Be nice to him. And then relax and look forward to one big-ass hug on my wedding day.
I liked this a lot, Sarah! But dear me, I feel terrible to know that people have said such hurtful and ludicrous things to you regarding your lack of engagement. I have been with my bf for three years as well, and we are also super happy (and not engaged) but I don’t get any snide comments or sad glances from anyone, thank goodness. Just as well because I’d probably smack someone upside the head. This might be because a lot of my friends are also in long-term (2+ year) relationships and are not engaged, for any number of reasons (people are still in school, paying off debt, living in different cities, whatever). In my circle, it’s normal to date for years before getting engaged, but I understand that this isn’t the norm everywhere. Yikes.
December 6, 2010 4:41 am
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Side note, though: I’m currently living in a country where people get engaged and married much earlier than in the US, and I do get a *lot* of questions here. My physical therapist asks me every week when my bf and I are going to get married, as if the answer is going to change week to week, and then says he is “just kidding” when I give him a semi-death glare. Soooo unnecessary. If I had to deal with this from people in my life who I actually care about, I’d probably go insane. So, I feel your pain on that front!
December 6, 2010 5:10 am
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What a great post – thanks, Sarah!
My fiance and I were in the pre-engaged state for a couple to several years (I think of it as starting from the time when we sat down and put everything on the table, while my friends, family, and acquaintances date it from a much earlier period in time). The part that always pissed em off was when his friends would harass him in front of me at social gatherings. “Geez, boy, why haven’t you proposed yet.?” “I’m sure she has the ring all picked, don’t you, honey?” Really? Really? Totally unnecessary.
Tacking on to last week’s epic discussion on loneliness, this made getting engaged less fun in a way than i had anticipated, because instead of “Wow!” or “Hoe exciting!” responses were more like, “Well, it’s about time” or, better yet, “Duh.” The transition seemed less a cause for celebration for everyone else, which was kind of a bummer.
December 6, 2010 4:49 am
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Hmmm. Sorry about all the typos. Need…. coffee….
December 6, 2010 4:50 am
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I feel you on this one. After 7 years of dating, my fiance proposed at our anniversary dinner. When I called my parents to tell them, and my father in the background goes, “Big surprise.” Honestly Dad? Not at all happy for me?
December 6, 2010 6:54 am
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Yep. Other than our parents (who are all oblivious in their own ways), the most common reaction we got was “I know!” (including my best friend … then she made up for it and we acted like complete ninnys, so she’s ok). Other responses included “About time!” and (the worst, imo) “Thank God.”
Seriously, people? Could we not just enjoy this moment?
December 6, 2010 7:57 am
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Oh my, can I relate. The most notable response I got was from my dad, “you must be pregnant,” because, you know…that’s the only reason a couple would get engaged after 3+ years of being together. I also got a lot of “’bout times” and the like. It really did put a damper on the whole engagement process. It just made it all less fun and exciting.
December 6, 2010 8:33 am
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“I’m sure she has the ring all picked, don’t you, honey?”…I got that too.
Why are you sure I have the ring picked out? Because I truly don’t trust the man I’m going to be with for the rest of my life??
December 6, 2010 8:21 am
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Hahaha! I hate that! A distant family acquaintance who barely knows me or my BF said loudly to a gathering of about 60 people, “Someone needs to tell Brian to go to Jared!” I almost punched her.
December 6, 2010 8:35 am
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yeah I got some confusing responses! I was really taken aback when people would say “oh I hadn’t pegged you guys for the types to get married. stay together forever, sure, but not Marriage!” just trying to reflect on past conversations where I might have expressed some deep-seated hatred/mistrust/snobbery toward the Institution…
December 6, 2010 10:57 am
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Boy and I were together 10 years before we got engaged, and I’d say this was the most common comment easily, blah.
December 6, 2010 8:18 pm
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LOLOLOL @ the roast chicken! I remember reading that a few years ago and being like, what the fuck? i mean, it looks delicious and all, and thanks for the recipe, but REALLY GLAMOUR? REALLY?
December 6, 2010 4:51 am
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Ugh, I know, the old “engagement chicken.” How does that work, exactly? Like, “he wasn’t going to propose, but once he tasted that chicken, boy did he change his mind.” What?!
December 6, 2010 5:01 am
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Because, in the words of the recipe intro, “it’s a chicken a wife would make.”
!!!
December 7, 2010 4:00 pm
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Yeah, I’ve been making roast chicken (Thomas Keller’s, not effing Glamour’s) for years – because I like roast chicken – and my sidekick-now-husband has yet say anything other than “meh” about it.
He’s crazy, of course, because it is delicious, but I’d bet that if you asked him, he’d put the roast chicken in the column with “things I accept because I love Amelia” rather than with “things that make me love Amelia.”
September 23, 2011 1:27 pm
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Because that would totally work on my vegetarian partner, wait what?
December 6, 2010 6:10 am
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Engagement tofu, anyone?
December 6, 2010 6:20 am
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Josephine, I think I just fell in love with you. Just a little bit. =)
December 6, 2010 8:05 am
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:)
December 6, 2010 10:13 am
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I just read that comment and laughed so loud, now everyone in the library is staring…
December 6, 2010 8:08 pm
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The sad thing is, that’s just a standard recipe for roasting a chicken, and it’s being passed off as ENGAGEMENT CHICKEN?? WTF?
December 6, 2010 6:38 am
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Plus, it looks like a regular old roast chicken–nice but nothing really special. I’m tempted to make it and see if I get the urge to propose to anyone myself.
December 6, 2010 6:43 am
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Seriously laughed out loud about the roast chicken article. Seriously??!
December 6, 2010 6:58 am
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Am I the only person who was clueless as to the “engagement chicken?” You can’t see it right now, but my brow is furrowed . . .
December 6, 2010 7:47 am
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Nope. I am brow furrowing as well. Never heard of this. WTF.
December 7, 2010 10:41 am
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This is serious?! I’m laughing so hard, I’ve attracted attention at work. ::Hears Mr. Sandman playing in background:: What year is it again? I’m sorry, my man just isn’t that simple. If he was, it would make being a strong opinionated woman so much easier, but my life so much more boring!
December 6, 2010 8:19 am
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*Would like to make it clear that my comment is about the roast chicken part, lol*
December 6, 2010 8:21 am
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Haha YES! I hate that concept for so many reasons.
December 6, 2010 8:58 am
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This is definitely a very basic recipe. If I was going to wow my boyfriend into proposing over a basic, delicious meal like roast chicken, I think I would have been proposed to about 5 years ago. I’m not food network good, but I can make a damn good chicken. :) Not to mention my efforts in cooking aren’t to convince him I’m wifely material. It’s because I enjoy it.
December 6, 2010 6:36 pm
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Oh, I hear this. I am engaged now, but in the months leading up to it I had a lot of this!
The best part about this is “talking about marriage is not pressuring for a ring”. So true!
December 6, 2010 4:52 am
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Much of this is human society trying to get us to marry so we can procreate. My belief is that until it becomes fully acceptable for women to propose, acceptable and internalized by all segments, change will be slow coming. The proposal moves a mutual decision into the magical arena of ritual. An arena where near-strangers feel they get to comment, too.
December 6, 2010 4:56 am
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THIS. I feel like so much of the WIC and, also the marriage industrial complex, is about you fulfilling a societal role rather than a personal one, but like any good marketing campaign, it’s made to feel personal. I believe that we shame the pre-engaged because they are essentially thwarting the marketing campaign of marriage (with or without intention, of course. It’s just how they see that group). And when we aren’t buying things based on our status in life it terrifies the powers of consumption and production.
To society, if you’re not married then how are they going to sell you dish soap, glade plugins, or tide detergent if not based on your marital status? But if you’re engaged then they’ve got you buying a ring and entering into bridal buying territory. But what if you’re neither or those? Then what kind of bracket do you fall into? There’s a lot of capitalism tied into marriage and the magic of romantic proposals and the feeling of accomplishment that is attached to engagement, those are the marketing campaigns.
December 6, 2010 6:23 am
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Yeah… last week I was thinking about this in regards to how maybe all those People Who Want To Sell You Stuff work hard to promote and perpetuate the idea of how “everyone” has several fabulous engagement parties/co-ed showers/girls-only showers/etc in their marketing to engaged people. That probably makes us feel more lonely in our own process but, of course, sells more stuff. And that is their goal.
December 6, 2010 8:47 am
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i think, too, it’s a symptom of our society’s assumption that we all are pushing for the same “next step.”
i have a number of students who don’t plan to go to college. but, when you hit your senior year of high school, everyone asks, “so, where are you going to college?” assuming that this is the obvious next step. (which- tangent- clearly, college is not the answer. as i can assume many, many of us on apw are loaded with degrees and still haven’t found work in our fields) this absolutely embarrasses and stings them. i can see it.
it’s all the same as “so when’s he gonna pop the question?” and “when do you two plan on having kids already?” and “when do you think you’ll buy a house and settle down?” as if there is a specific progression to life that equates success and happiness.
December 6, 2010 7:09 am
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This really helps explain why the way that (rude) people shame unengaged individuals in long-term relationship bears such a striking resemblance to the way that they shame married individuals w/o kids. Good times.
December 6, 2010 8:28 am
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Exactly!! And what really blows my mind is that, in the same breath, many middle-aged people who have “followed all the steps” will say they are unhappy, want more out of life, only married/had kids/took this job because they were told “that’s what you do.” Huh?!?
December 6, 2010 9:04 am
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Well, of course! If they followed a certain path because that’s what they felt they had to do, you certainly don’t get to choose something else. Then their unhappiness or dissatisfaction is their fault, and they can’t blame it on someone else. Misery loves company and all that.
December 6, 2010 3:39 pm
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I LOVE this comment on everyone expecting you to take this collective “next step.” It hits home too as a teacher who worked with high schoolers in an urban district. While college is expected and the “key to success,” many kids just aren’t meant to go that route. And it’s the same for marriage and engagements. People who don’t take the next step are scorned for not doing so. Even by people who are miserable with their choices. Maybe some kids will regret going to college. Maybe some people will regret not getting engaged or married sooner, but it’s almost like you have to choose their steps so you can wallow in misery together. I think there are a number of reasons that people choose not to get married, and it’s definitely not always because the girl is hoping at any moment the guy will change his mind. Any time you go against the norm people want to have something to say about it.
December 6, 2010 6:47 pm
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Liz, I am SO GLAD you brought up the High School/College thing. It’s true, college is not necessarily the right decision for everyone (and by this I mean, traditional 4 year schools), and yet we shame high school students into making a decision on something that they may or may not be ready for and/or may or may not want to do, ever.
In hindsight, though I clearly wanted to pursue higher education and graduate schooling beyond that – and I knew this – I think I would have been better served taking a road less traveled (i.e., community college, Americorps, etc.). I was not unsuccessful in my higher education ventures – quite the opposite, actually – but I made some wrong decisions for me because I was not ready for them but felt I was on a timeline.
The same can be said for any major life decision – you shouldn’t be doing it on someone else’s timeline, you should be doing it on YOUR timeline and YOUR terms (or, in this case, you and your partner would share that decision).
December 7, 2010 3:47 pm
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I was pretty surprised at how everyone who found out I was engaged felt entitled to ask me for “the story.” There isn’t one–we got engaged “gradually,” as someone on a previous post put it. If I’d had a proposal “story,” I don’t think I would have had a problem sharing it with even casual friends, but it was somewhat unsettling how people feel free to ask and then are visibly disappointed if you don’t have a story or don’t want to share it. People seem to feel that they have the right to know details about getting married (not to mention getting pregnant! ) and are unconcerned that they might be making others uncomfortable.
December 6, 2010 7:36 am
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haha- your comment made me wonder how much fun it would be if we all started expecting “conception stories”
December 6, 2010 7:55 am
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We spent more money than we should have at the naughty shop the third day of our honeymoon and then… well… oops!
I would actually do that, you know. Might make people reconsider asking the next person!
December 6, 2010 8:45 am
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it was funny. a few moms were discussing… conception… on twitter. and it was almost universal that the night of conception was a MEMORABLE sex night. i didn’t realize til later, when counting back with my husband.
would make for some good stories. ;)
December 6, 2010 11:24 am
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@Liz- Lol, “memorable sex night,” I will so be stealing that phrase. Oh, monogamy…
December 6, 2010 1:26 pm
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Liz, I had a friend volunteer info about hers … (I didn’t ask, it came up in conversation and we were close enough that she was comfortable).
“We were trying to figure out HOW, because we were using protection, and then we remembered that night we went out with friends that neither of us really remembers, and when we counted back, that must have been it!”
December 7, 2010 3:49 pm
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This is a great post, and a lot of really great points, but I feel like it assumes that most “pre-engaged” people are happy about that state. When I was waiting for him to propose (literally waiting, because he asked me not to ask him and I agreed, and he passed out of the timeline we had agreed on without asking), I was pretty miserable. I was anxious, and upset, and my self esteem took a hit, and the people that I tried to talk to didn’t want to have a serious conversation. So a few more dos and don’ts, for the person who is sad about waiting:
DON’T: Tell me not to talk about it. Blow me off. I’m upset because I’m not feeling valued in my relationship and my partner is making me sad. Do not tell me that my feelings are wrong, or I need to get over myself, or I need to stop feeling sad.
DO: Listen to me talk. If you know that the person is sad about not being engaged, don’t avoid ever talking to them about it. Don’t always change the subject. For most women who are “waiting”, they can’t talk to their partners about how they feel because it’s “pressure” which leaves you totally lonely and without anyone to talk to.
DON’T: Act like my wedding plans are a pipe dream. We knew, since 2007, that we were getting married in the Fall of 2010. It wasn’t a “if he proposes by then” or a “if we’re still together by then.” We had set a date before we set a date, and a lot of couples have a similar timeline. So when I said, “we’ll get married in 2010″ and people acted like I had no right to know that information, it made me crazy. It was their way of trying to get me to give all control to him, and I thought I was being pretty reasonable.
DO: Ask me how it’s going. I had one friend through all of this who was understanding and kind. She would check in with me and see how insane I was, whether he and I had talked anymore about getting engaged, and whether we had come to any conclusions (because I just wanted to decide we were getting married and he wanted the story.)
December 6, 2010 4:59 am
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This is just my opinion, but if you’re getting married in fall 2010 or whenever, to me that sounds like you are engaged. You might not have had a proposal but doesn’t being engaged just mean you’ve both agreed to get married? You are betrothed.
It’s like the opposite of people I used to know when I was younger who got ‘engaged’ but weren’t actually planning a wedding any time soon.
December 6, 2010 5:18 am
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Of course that’s what it sounds like to people on Team Practical. To regular, not with-it, self-empowered people, I was pathetic. Absolutely pathetic for even thinking that far ahead. For talking about the date. I was just a silly little girl, dreaming about my wedding. Knowing that knowing when we were getting married was the same as being engaged did nothing but earn me disdain. I didn’t have a ring. I hadn’t been given the honor of receiving a proposal. In the months before we got engaged, I took about a billion hits to my self esteem from every direction – either from the “of course you’re engaged, so stand up for yourself” camp, or the “of course you’re not engaged, stop being pathetic” camp. The end result is just that I’m glad it’s all over now.
December 6, 2010 7:15 am
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What an awkward position. I felt perculiar when I was pre-engaged. I had my mum basically implying that if my partner and I were committed we’d have married eachother before moving in together. I had to explain that we were committed but not quite enough to get married yet, and she never really believed me. But I was very clear on us being either (1) engaged and defintiely going to get married or (2) not engaged, however seriously we were contemplating getting married. I think I was lucky that the idea was so entrenched for me — I couldn’t be put in the ultra awkward position you described.
But I think what’s lousy is that you got put in a position where you were bound to end up seeing yourself as pathetic, either way. It’s terrible to have people beating themselves up when it’s *the circumstances combined with the traditions around engagement* which are stupid. We could all do without our self-esteem being walloped. And I could have done without the arguments with my mum. Like you say — it’s over now!
Although, come to think of it, I still haven’t told my mum that I proposed to him. Just in case.
December 6, 2010 8:09 am
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Definitely agree with you on this one. I am “pre-engaged” and not happy about it either.
I also hate it when people say “Why don’t you just propose?” I’ve asked him how he feels about this, and he really wants to do it, once he has enough money to buy a ring he can feel comfortable with. But what he feels comfortable with is totally uncomfortable with me! I want something small, or nothing would be fine. But to him, you need a ring to be engaged. So, to the person who said that the couple was engaged because they had picked a wedding date, I disagree. It takes two people to be engaged. If one person doesn’t think you are, even if you’ve picked a date, you’re not.
I feel totally powerless because everything is on his terms, but if it is on my terms, he would be unhappy about it.
Arg! I’ve read all the engagement posts, but it still can’t shake this feeling. It really truly does suck.
December 6, 2010 7:14 am
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I like this. “It takes two people to be engaged.” Just like tango. It seems so simple.
December 6, 2010 6:52 pm
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I totally understand, I feel the same way. I actually thought he was going to propose this weekend when he visited, so I decided to do up my nails But sadly he did. so I am still patiently waiting.
December 7, 2010 5:02 am
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“Why don’t you jut propose?”!!! I hate that question. (Although I will admit that 99-100% of the time, it’s the evil part of my brain asking. The rational part knows he isn’t ready yet, and that proposing before he’s ready is a not good idea.
November 15, 2012 12:21 am
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I really appreciate this note because I was thinking about this other option while reading through this yesterday. It’s AWESOME if you are wonderfully happy in your pre-engaged state, and people who can’t handle that (though possibly well meaning?) are annoying and can be hurtful, but the women who are NOT happy in their pre-engaged state are also 1) not crazy 2) not clingy and 3) have completely valid concerns and feelings. And I think both men and women forget that since society is so against the woman “wanting to RUN to the alter” (Barf) yet so focused on “getting them married”. Fucked up.
December 6, 2010 7:33 am
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Right! AND to top it off, there’s all this pressure (from society and from our male partners in hetero relationships) that HE has to be the one to ask. And if you ask? You’re a nag/pressuring the guy to get married. Or you’re going to ruin the surprise! Or you’re “that girl”. Or, blah, blah, blah.
Waiting is terrible! And yet the whole system is set up for women to wait patiently and act perfectly while waiting, and if they act “wrong” (asking questions, feeling anxious, feeling impatient, feeling insecure) then they are RUINING THINGS.
Ugh, there is really no win.
December 6, 2010 7:56 am
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Yes!! But we’re not crazy, and we’re not nagging. So we want to plan our lives! We have careers to think about, reproduction to consider, are we going to be moving? what about finances? But god forbid we “ruin the surprise”. eerrgg! It’s making me angry. This is a life choice! It’s not a birthday party!
December 6, 2010 8:07 am
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This repeated in a louder voice!
Wanting to plan is not the same as being clingy. In every other area of life, wanting to plan and successful doing so are considered grown-up.
December 6, 2010 8:16 am
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I LOVE that
“This is a life choice! It’s not a birthday party!”
so true.
December 10, 2010 4:41 pm
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Ladies-
I just want to point out that couples counseling (or pre-pre-marital counseling, ha) is always an option, and might be a good option for the unhappily waiting. Your partner is, in a sense, totally stripping you of your power because… they want a good story… or tradition, or what have you. If it were me, I’d be booking an appointment, if only to take my power back.
It’s a whole other ballgame when you’re waiting together (we did this for awhile). David wasn’t quite ready, and I was, and we waited. That’s a different thing. My power was fully intact, it was just vaugly annoying. I wished he was ready, but I knew he’d get there, and I was fine with waiting.
December 6, 2010 9:08 am
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It never occurred to me at the time to think about any kind of counseling. Either for me, or for us. I think it probably would have helped a lot, even if it was just having somebody listen to me and remind me that my feelings were valid and I wasn’t ruining anything by trying to talk to my partner.
Clearly, I was absolutely miserable while I was waiting, and even though that was two years ago (and we’ve been married for two months), it still really stings when I think/talk about it. Ultimately, my partner hurt my feelings in a very real, ongoing, harsh way, and that takes a lot of work to get over. So I also would urge anybody who feels…bummed, or worse, to try some kind of counseling, or at least find a trusted friend. I think the worst part is the wedding amnesia that people get, where suddenly, they’re engaged and it’s like, “oh, it’s all okay now! it no longer matters that you treated me like crap and as if my feelings didn’t matter!!!!” They advise other women to just suck it up and be patient and don’t go cry about it. The only thing that helped me was either talking to my partner about it, or talking to a friend who was understanding and told me that it was okay to feel crummy about it because it was a crummy situation.
December 6, 2010 8:04 pm
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My story is similar in some ways. He wasn’t ready yet, though I was, and we talked about it a lot. It was something HE needed to work through first, before he could bring his whole self to marriage, to death-do-us-part commitment. He went into counseling, and things got worked out. Now, looking back, I’d not have had it any other way. I probably could have goaded him into marrying earlier, part of me certainly wanted to at the time, and it was really hard and painful waiting, but I didn’t want to feel like he was doing it just because he wanted to make me happy. I can say now I’m sure glad he worked out the things he needed to work out first, and I think we’ll have a much stronger marriage for that waiting. I feel so much more confident about US.
I recommend occasional honest check-ins. Once he started counseling, he started to figure stuff out, and he kept me in the loop as he figured things out. Him explaining what was going on in his head from time to time, that really helped. It really drove home the “waiting together” part if we were having honest conversations about how we were feeling about it from time to time.
December 6, 2010 8:40 pm
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This is a good point. My husband and I were the same way. I wasn’t necessarily in a hurry to get married, but I wanted to and he knew it. And I knew he wanted to as well, but I also knew his employment situation was precarious, and I also knew he wanted to propose to me (I dropped some hints about women proposing to men in general, and while he didn’t come out and say he would have a problem with it, I could tell he was uncomfortable with the idea).
In other words, he knew if he asked, I would say yes. I knew he wanted to get married, and I was waiting for him to be ready. Vaguely annoying? Yes. But I wasn’t unhappy about it – we had a great life together, and I was content.
To springboard off of this, however, if a woman proposes or “proposes” (i.e., tells her partner she wants to get married, even if she doesn’t say, “Will you marry me?”), and the guy says “No,” or “I’m not ready,” or something to that effect, the relationship isn’t necessarily doomed; but if the guy proposes and the girl says she’s not ready, then it’s over, finito, done for? Anyone else take issue with this?
December 7, 2010 3:57 pm
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I definitely take issue with that! I also am a living counter-example. :P
The first two times my guy asked me, I said “maybe”: we’d not been together that long, and there were other things I wanted to get sorted out first. I wasn’t sure if I was a “marrying type”. So, the gal saying no doesn’t have to be the end. (Of course, some people, upon hearing of those times, brushed it off because he didn’t have a ring!)
We eventually got engaged without a ring*, after nearly eight years of dating. I was never bummed to be not-engaged, and plenty of times in the later years, we’d say that we were already planning to spend our lives together anyway, and that we were married in our hearts.
I had one gal guess pregnancy instead of engagement when I said I had exciting news, and that was a bit of a bummer, because I ‘had to’ say, “No, we’re just engaged.” Just! ;/
*I do have a ring now. Not a diamond, not a solitaire, totally me. ;p
January 11, 2011 4:29 pm
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wait…help! what’s the difference between being pre-engaged and being engaged? is being engaged the part where you formally decide to start planning a wedding? or the part when you start a life together, or start planning a life together? i’m confused in light of our recent discussion on untraditional proposals…
that being asked, i love your bulls by the horns attitude!
also, i suspect so many people are asking you these obnoxious questions because they want to validate their own choices…i imagine it must threaten them to see you so confident and happy before you’re “even engaged.” The wedding machine seems to point to the wedding itself as the thing that guarantees eternal happiness.
December 6, 2010 4:59 am
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I’ll try to answer as best I can, but this is just my experience/ opinion. I consider myself ‘pre-engaged’. My bf and I have been together for 5 years, living together for 1.5, but it is not assumed nor decided that we will get married. Most likely, that is what will happen. But there has not been any sort of decision yet where we say ‘yes, we are going to get married’. We still talk about our future together in 5 years, 10 years etc. So for me, pre-engaged really means that it still isn’t formally decided that you are getting married. If my close friends were to ask if we were getting married, I would say “Most likely. But we have no definite plans of that, yet.”
Last week someone alluded to the proposal being separate from engagement. An engagement doesn’t mean that you received a proposal. They can be distinct event. Though if you received a proposal, then you’re engaged; that of course, still follows.
For me, if you are planning a wedding, then you are engaged. You may not have received a proposal, but if you have definite plans of getting married, then you are engaged. Which is far different from pre-engaged, where we have no current plans or committment to get married.
December 6, 2010 5:21 am
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My biggest understanding is that when a couple starts talking about marriage in a serious way, even if they’re not “officially engaged,” (aka if they don’t call themselves engaged), then they are pre-engaged.
When we started dating, my then-boyfriend and I would get a little tipsy and then say, “… what if we had lots of sunflowers at … some … some wedding. But you know, not that wedding that would be our wedding because we don’t talk about that yet, but if we were, we should talk about how we should have sunflowers! Let’s have another drink!”
And then, we started talking about it casually, normally, out loud, in the daylight, and totally sober. Without apologizing for it. We would say, “Hey, wanna get married at that old movie theatre?” “Yeah! Let’s find out how much it would be!” I would consider that pre-engaged.
And then, that continued for a while. And all that while, I told him not to propose because I wasn’t ready yet. Not ready for that big new word of engagement and finace/e. So the pre-engagement continued, until I proposed to him, and now we are very much officially engaged. (Though we kept it secret for a little over a month and so that was a funny little transitional period which we could not have gone without.)
So anyways, that’s my take on pre-engagement. It’s pretty much what you want it to be though, just like engagement, or marriage, or relationships. I believe, around here, that we get to call the shots about our own lives!
December 6, 2010 5:24 am
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My fiancé and I knew we wanted to be together forever, but we initially did not want to marry. We had both been divorced once before and were not huge fans of the institution even though we’re very happy together. Although we were talking about moving in together (and did), the institution of marriage was not on the table. We decided to marry because we ultimately decided that the leval protections were too important to us, and my kids need the ceremony. So we got engaged and started planning a wedding.
I’m also a little confused by the term pre-engaged. I always assumed a person could be in a committed relationship without a pending wedding, but I have never labeled it pre-engaged. To me, an engagement was always like a pregnancy, you either are or you’re nor. Thank you for explaining this nuance to me. I think it my be something a lot of people are not aware of.
December 6, 2010 7:23 am
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I think of myself as “pre-engaged” because of timing issues. My boyfriend and I want to get married, we’ve talked about it extensively, we’re looking at rings, and we’re planning our life together right now, but due to our job situation and finances (I work in a position where I have to live in a dorm with high school students at a boarding school, and I can’t have someone living with me there, and I want to keep this job for at least one more year) the earliest we can realistically get married is the summer of 2012. While I know it works for some people, we don’t want or need an 18 month engagement period, so we’re planning on being officially engaged – announcing ourselves as such to our friends, family, and (haha) facebook – sometime this spring or summer. Plus, his brother just got engaged this month, so we’ll probably wait a little longer to become engaged because we don’t want to step on their toes.
So obviously it’s different for every couple, but I think being “pre-engaged” is a real thing. I got irritated by a conversation thread on the Website That Shall Not Be Named about pre-engagement, where women were berating each other because “pre-engagement doesn’t exist. You either are or you aren’t. Keep waiting for the ring, honey.”
Pregnancy is a physical thing – you either are or you aren’t – but engagement status is a murkier and mutable thing. Are you only engaged when you have a ring? When you tell people? When you’re actively planning a wedding? I’m sure on APW there are couples with a story that would contradict any one of these edicts. There are also couples who probably never needed to think of themselves as “pre-engaged.” But it’s real, and personal, and part of modern coupledom.
End rant :)
December 6, 2010 8:27 am
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We knew we wanted to get married before we mutually decided we wanted to get engaged. We were not engaged, didn’t want to be engaged, were not planning a wedding, were not telling people we were planning a wedding… but we seriously talked about marraige and knew that unless something crazy occured, we were going to get hitched. At that point, for us, we were sort of pre-engaged. And I was thinking about weddings a fair bit.
For us, engagement was when we were ready to announce it to the world and ready to start planning a wedding.
December 6, 2010 9:11 am
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I was pre-engaged for a few months, the tell-tale signs being:
1) You’ve realised that this is the destination your relationship train is headed
2) You talk about “when we get married” not “if we get married”
3) One or both of you is waiting for the right moment/perfect ring/bit of time to adjust to the new relationship dynamic/planets to align/family drama to pass
This is just my experience though, if you are pre-engaged you may have other symptoms :D
I’d say pre-engagement was a really helpful time for us- we managed to ease ourselves into the double-fear of commitment for life and “weddings cost HOW MUCH?!” without added pressure from family, friends and complete strangers wanting to know every last detail. I’d highly recommend it!
December 6, 2010 3:35 pm
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Oh Sarah I love you, mainly for the Vonnegut quote, which I wonder if he got to an afterlife and realized he got that wrong. (everyone has different beliefs, it’s only in death that they can be confirmed true)
I actually had a friend of my boyfriend’s tell me I should propose to him since I am the money maker and we’ve been together forever. Then about 2 mins later said how demasculating it kind of is for me to be the provider and for the woman to propose. Soooo you want me to demasculate my boyfriend, your friend further by your accounts? Thanks for the advice but it’s already been discussed between us. I know he hates living off of me and wishes he could help, but with just graduating and me being out 2 years earlier than he was he’s accepted our current financial situation and is thankful one of us a decent income.
I don’t think friends helped me to not be jealous even just a year ago of their engagements, by doing almost all of these don’ts. I went through my own struggle of coming to terms with just because I didn’t have a ring didn’t mean we didn’t have the future we discussed a lot about.
December 6, 2010 5:00 am
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oh man by the time i finished writing and posted that last comment, several other people had posted something. i love that you guys are reading this at the same time!
December 6, 2010 5:02 am
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one more, i swear!
the term “pre-engaged” seems odd to me. my partner and i decided to spend our lives together several months before we decided to have a wedding. i use the term “engaged” to describe us now, but i would have objected to someone using the term “pre-engaged” to describe us if they saw no ring and heard no wedding plans…we weren’t planning to get engaged! so it seems to imply even in the word that if a couple doesn’t get married or have a wedding for some reason, their relationship is somehow incomplete or not yet finished.
December 6, 2010 5:07 am
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I suspect (and Sarah or Meg, please correct me if I’m wrong) that Sarah and her boyfriend do plan to eventually marry, and that the term “pre-engaged” works for them for that reason. I think it’s an interesting and valid point that pre-engaged is not for everyone, and does imply that it’s a temporary place to be.
My wife and I were “pre-engaged” for awhile, but it was post-dating and before we were ready to tell the world about it. I did give her a ring, but she wore it on her other hand and it was our pre-engagement ring… and that’s a story for another time, but my point is that it can be different things for different people. It is a tricky line to walk, though…
December 6, 2010 5:20 am
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what roughit said.
it’s not a matter of being “pre-engaged” in the sense of marriage being an eventuality for everyone. but certain people are pre-engaged- to the extent that they know a wedding is coming, but don’t have the traditional ring or date set or deposits down.
December 6, 2010 5:46 am
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It’s definitely a couple by couple thing. Some have it, some don’t. If it’s not for you, don’t describe yourself as pre-engaged.
But my partner and I were pre-engaged before we made it official. We were talking a lot about getting married. Both of us expressed the desire to get married, but neither of us had made a promise to each other that we would actually marry each other. We both agreed we wanted a proposal to mark the transition into “engaged.” So that’s what we did.
I think in our modern world, some of us just need more nuanced terms for where we are in our relationship, and “pre-engaged” works for some of us.
December 6, 2010 6:21 am
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“Both of us expressed the desire to get married, but neither of us had made a promise to each other that we would actually marry each other. We both agreed we wanted a proposal to mark the transition into “engaged.””
That makes sense. I am on board with the idea of more-nuanced-terms etc., but I’m still wondering what to call people who have decided to spend their lives together but aren’t planning a wedding (because they don’t want to (or can’t legally) get married for some reason) or they just don’t want to deal with it right then). “Pre-engaged” seems odd. “Engaged” seems odd (although I used that term to describe myself when I was in that boat.) My partner and I were in the latter category and couldn’t figure out how to refer to each other. This stage was relatively brief for us, because it was so uncomfortable in reference to our families that we decided that planning the darn wedding already would make things easier.
I don’t want to belitte this stage in some relationships, I just want to figure out a way to describe others without implying that you have to be engaged to be happy or to have a fulfilled relationship.
December 6, 2010 7:03 am
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I think you have to ask the couple what they preferred to be called. Some might openly embrace being called pre-engaged, but you can’t make that assumption for everyone. Maybe “seriously committed” would be best for those you are unsure of.
December 6, 2010 7:56 am
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Right. We definitely fall into this category of “pre-engaged” (dating for 7 years, living together for 4, openly planning our future together, relocating for the other partner, etc.) but if someone referred to us with this label, honestly, I’d be irritated. Personally, we’re not engaged because we don’t want/need a label about this status in our relationship.
I stress “personally” because this issue, like everything else, is a matter of individual choice. That’s the unofficial motto of APW, right?
December 6, 2010 8:18 am
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Yeah, this is why I appreciate the word, “conjoint/conjointe” used in Québec. It is roughly translated as “partner” in English and is used for any serious, committed romantic relationship, regardless of marital status or sexuality. Etymologically, comes from words that mean “to come together” or “to join together.” Its genius is its ability to work in any situation where a couple has moved beyond a state of casual dating, and everyone uses it because no one expects marriage to be the goal. (Which is a problem with the term “pre-engaged”. That term only works when the couple looks at marriage as a goal.) Around here, if I throw in the word “mari” (“husband”) into a conversation with someone new, it ALWAYS gets noticed and so I sometimes just say “conjoint” if I don’t feel like specifying our marital state.
December 6, 2010 9:20 am
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And I also wanted to add that I think I would only feel comfortable using the term “pre-engaged” to describe myself. Or acknowledging that someone else describes herself as “pre-engaged.” I guess I figure the couple needs to figure out how to define themselves and at what point they consider themselves “engaged,” or whatever the term is. I mean, “married” is easier to figure out since it is a legal status, but sometimes it is hard to figure out all the other terms to describe relationships and I think it is only the couple that can decide for themselves. If someone tells you you are “engaged” but there has been no proposal and you don’t feel like you are “engaged”…? I mean, who am I to try to determine when somebody else is engaged? For me, when I had a non-proposal entry into engagement, I had to sort through all the cultural noise myself and figure it out myself. :)
December 6, 2010 9:32 am
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Hmm, after thinking about it, I guess the term “married” is not necessarily clear either since couples can choose to be non-legally married. I guess I would just try to respect however a couple defines themselves and go with that term. I guess sometimes it is hard to define relationships and various stages of a relationship in something as limiting as language…
December 6, 2010 10:03 am
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i think we we call that a “committed relationship” or “living together” or even (rarely) “dating.”
i see the pre-engaged thing as slightly different. it’s when a person finds themselves in this state of knowing- possibly even planning- an eventual wedding and feeling sort of in limbo.
there was a good two months before i was engaged when i sometimes called josh my fiance. because i didn’t know what we were. we weren’t engaged. but we almost were, sort of. and that’s what i think of when i heat the term- sort of an almost-engaged-but-not-yet place.
December 6, 2010 8:05 am
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Yeah, the experience I think we’re all converging on as “pre-engaged” is definitely different, but what I was thinking about is also different than living together, being seriously committed, or dating, all of which my partner and I were doing before we decided to spend our lives together. I guess I like the word “partner” for exactly the reasons described below.
December 6, 2010 11:13 am
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Dear God in heaven. I would not start calling people pre-engaged unless you want to get smacked. I think that’s a term we can use to describe a point that many people reach… maybe a term the couple uses for themselves, maybe not, but not an outside label.
David and I knew each other for a decade before we started dating. So from the beginning, I thought we were going to get married. Deciding to spend our lives together was not a great revelation, just a gradual confirmation of a hypothesis. Once we’d moved across country together, and were waiting for timing issues to resolve to get engaged… that was our personal (internal) pre-engaged period. It doesn’t happen for everyone, but if it happens for you, it’s empowering to know that it’s normal.
December 6, 2010 9:21 am
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“Deciding to spend our lives together was not a great revelation, just a gradual confirmation of a hypothesis.”
YES!
December 6, 2010 10:55 am
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Mmmhmm, I definitely agree that I’d like another term other than “pre-engaged”. I see about 100 million similarities between myself and Sarah (happy as clams living together, building a life together, no wedding plans, no marriage plans, constantly pestered, etc etc) except that I don’t, at all, see myself as “pre-engaged”. I think, even for those who are for sure planning on having a wedding some day, that saying you’re pre-engaged kinda belittles your current life stage a bit. Like you’re “two steps behind”, planning or preparing for an engagement stage, when you will then plan and prepare for a wedding stage. I’m not planning or preparing any additional stages! My life is happy and settled and it feels lovely. I’m not two steps behind anything. Maybe I’m projecting? But I would like an alternative word, maybe one that feels a little more settled, even if one day it will involve more planning and preparing :)
December 6, 2010 6:38 am
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Yeah, this! This is what I was going for!
(Go Andrea.)
December 6, 2010 7:04 am
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I really think this is a self-identifying term. You’re pre-engaged if you say you are. If you don’t, you’re not, even if the situation is exactly the same as someone who is pre-engaged. Just like people who are engaged without rings or married without the paperwork, you can call your relationship whatever you want. It’s title is what it is to the two of you.
I say make up your own term!
December 6, 2010 7:14 am
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Mmm. Yes. Alyssa, good point that we don’t all have to be called the same thing if we’re in similar life situations. Putting a name to it won’t necessarily unite the experience (look at “married”, and how many different things that can mean, etc). I’ll report back when we have a term.
December 6, 2010 8:07 am
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Alyssa’s right. OBVIOUSLY not everyone in a committed relationship is pre-engaged (I didn’t even think I had to give that warning, because obviously). But some people go through this, and it’s empowering to know you’re not alone if you do.
December 6, 2010 9:24 am
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I understand this feeling. Before I was engaged I never thought of myself as “pre-engaged”, but Husband and I were moving towards marriage – we were talking about it, figuring out what worked for us, what we wanted our marriage to look like, how a wedding would fit into our schedules.
From a commitment standpoint we were already engaged (hell, we were already married) we just weren’t defining our relationship that way. I guess we were “committed, with a future”? We did occasionally lament that “boyfriend/girlfriend” were inadequate descriptors. Occasionally when people asked I’d tell them we weren’t planning a wedding yet, but that it was the last relationship I was going to be in.
December 6, 2010 7:25 am
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“committed, with a future”
I like that!
December 6, 2010 7:57 am
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I think this is why some people use the term “partner” – originally mostly us LGBT folks used it, especially back in the day when we didn’t have the option to marry anywhere, but now it seems to be a term available to everyone. It’s a good term in that it implies long-term commitment more serious than “boyfriend/girlfriend” without being dependent on marital status, but there is always the chance someone will think you’re referring to a business partner, etc. Nonetheless, after five+ years of dating and before getting engaged, I would refer to my now-fiancee as my “partner,” because it felt a little more accurate and respectful.
December 6, 2010 7:57 am
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I often refer to my BF as partner, too. It’s not super squishy and romantic, but that’s one of the things I like about it, actually. And as a straight girl who cares very deeply about LGBT issues, I like using a word with roots in the struggle for gay & lesbian marriage.
December 6, 2010 8:23 am
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Totally! I agree it’s a bit clinical-sounding, but I find there’s such a temporary connotation with “boyfriend/girlfriend” that I don’t like using it because we’re definitely past that stage. And yes, as someone who tries to be very aware of LGBTQ issues, I do prefer that it’s gender neutral, because my sexuality shouldn’t be the concern of everyone I speak with.
December 6, 2010 9:57 am
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To me, “fiance” sounds pretentious, “spouse” sounds like a type of bird, “significant other” is a mouthful and “future husband” is just tempting fate. “Partner” sounds a little cold, “boyfriend” sounds like I’m 12 and “bedwarmer” is a little misleading.
I go with “other half”, as it’s truly what he is to me :D
December 6, 2010 3:47 pm
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I actually prefer the term partner to fiance as it tends to fend off the silly “When’s your wedding, what are your colours?” nonsense conversation. Mainly because the term fiance denotes a liminal stage, but sometimes you just don’t want to talk about it with everyone (back to someone else comment about how it becomes acceptable to weigh in as its seen as a ritual).
December 6, 2010 10:05 am
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I always hated the term ‘fiance.’ I never used it. I think I went straight from ‘my boyfriend’ to ‘my husband’ in my mind . . . if necessary, I called him my ‘future husband’ when referring to him in company. I’m not even sure why ‘fiance’ bothered me so much — it doesn’t bother me when other people use it, or when he referred to me as his fiancee, I just could not bring myself to say it! (I’m admittedly funny about words though.)
December 6, 2010 10:59 am
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It’s not just you! I hate “fiance,” it took me months to use–and only because people started getting weird about me not using it. And now I have literally had to bite my tongue to not just say husband yet! Oh the bane of long engagements.
And I agree with how *that word* invites complete strangers to comment on your wedding planning! The absolute worst is how little respect it conjures. I have had to fight for him to be allowed to be place/do things (hospital rooms, etc.), because people don’t take it seriously. And I check the domestic partner box everywhere I can find one, and it does little good either! We are planning to get married, how do you not believe us until we are?! And even then, how are we supposed to *prove* we are married?! I’m not changing my name, will it be cause I’m wearing a band, not a solitaire?!?! F#ck off!
Sorry, sorry, rant over. This is clearly a sore spot for me. I think life would be easier if I just went around fibbing and saying husband. It really goes to prove how much weight word choices can carry…
December 6, 2010 1:49 pm
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I hate “fiance” too! Using it always makes me feel like I am fishing for…questions or something. Like I must be dying to talk about my wedding and have people ask to see my ring and that’s why I mentioned “my fiance.” It’s funny, because before we were engaged I felt that “boyfriend” was so inadequate and badly wanted to be “fiance/es” to each other because I felt like it appropriately connoted our seriousness (such a romantic way to phrase it! heh.). But now I awkwardly skirt around the term and try to avoid it. Whenever possible I just use his first name.
December 6, 2010 6:52 pm
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I hate the “boyfriend/girlfriend” terms – almost as much as I hate “dating” (although it must be acknowledged that that latter term is not used so much in Australia, and seems to imply something a lot more casual here than in the US, for example).
So I pretty much use “partner” for my “committed, with a future” (that’s so awesome by the way) bloke, except for with a few older folks who just don’t get that at all.
It mainly gets the message across, although as a lawyer (for whom the word “partner” has a pretty specific professional meaning) I did have one person say “Huh? Your partner? Like, your supervising partner?”.
But then again, that person was a complete and utter douche and was probably trying to take the piss out of me in a weird, quasi-homophobic way. Sigh.
December 6, 2010 2:10 pm
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Yeah, partner seems to work pretty well in Australia. So many couples are committed and live together but don’t seem interested in getting married that it’s a common term. It doesn’t seem to have much in the way of same-sex connotations either. Although I did get confused once by a girl who was talking about her partner as ‘she’… and it took me a while to realise she meant business partner rather than romantic partner.
I still call my bloke partner. It sounds much less giddy than fiance, somehow. And him being my life partner is the important thing to me, more so than the going-to-get-married part.I also call him my other half, cos it’s true, but seems a bit cheesy.
December 6, 2010 5:14 pm
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I use “SO” for significant other. I say the letters “ess-oh”. Part of it is my exposure to the LGBT community. Though my partner is of the opposite gender, that’s not really anyone’s business but mine. I like SO. My boyfriend is my significant other, from now until we part ways or die. I also like that significant other is free from some of the baggage and connotation of boyfriend. No, it’s not casual. “Living with my boyfriend” gives me more crap than “living with my significant other.” It is easy to use in an office: “Holiday Gathering. Significant others welcome.”
December 9, 2010 7:33 pm
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I also find ‘partner’ to be the best term I can find for my other. Essentially, we live as a married couple and are planning a wedding, a house and a family, but none of the other terms seem to fit—he’s not my ‘boyfriend,’ not my ‘husband,’ not my ‘fiance.’
I find referring to him as my Partner neatly side steps having to explain my legal situation, implies the seriousness of our relationship, and doesn’t imply that we’re headed for marriage (so I can avoid prying questions until the time is right.)
April 27, 2011 7:51 pm
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First, I completely agree that pre-engaged is a self-identifying term and not one you say or give to others because you don’t know what conversations others have had behind closed doors. I too struggle with a term and repeatedly fall back on partner. I was envious when Jenny- Adventures Along the Way talked about the term conjoint and everyone understanding that it was more serious than boyfriend/girlfriend and yet doesn’t have this ultimate goal of marriage. If it happens, it happens, but it’s not expected.
For me, I use partner often because I don’t feel like boyfriend/girlfriend reflects the commitments we’ve made to each other despite not being engaged. I certainly don’t consider myself pre-engaged at this moment even though we frequently discuss our future together. We’re happy where we are at this point in time. I know that where I live, the use of partner is not as common, and I can tell people are trying to figure me out if they don’t know me well. My sexuality is my business. I feel that it’s all the more reason to use the term and own it so that one day using partner implies a level of commitment and not automatically the sexuality of the two people in it.
December 6, 2010 7:45 pm
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We definitely had a pre-engaged time. But oh-man, I would never have called us that, at the time.
For us, there was no fussing … we talked about marriage, said yes, this is for us, and bought a ring. And then … nothing. He had the ring. I didn’t. We hadn’t felt the need to make any kind of big announcement (as we didn’t feel there was anything to announce) … so, looking back, we were totally “pre-engaged.” Then he proposed, and we told our parents and then the world. Bam, “engaged.”
It was an interesting time for me. On the one hand, I could enjoy that we had this little happy secret between us. But, at the same time, knowing a proposal was coming … and then not having it come for a while … was insanely nerve-wracking. Like Ellie said, a few comments up, there were times when it was very sad, and a total hit on my self esteem. But there were also times when it was fabulous. So … quite the experience indeed.
December 6, 2010 8:14 am
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This is interesting – Since Husband was ready to get engaged way before me, I felt a *lot* more relaxed after he had the ring. He said it was important to him to propose to me “properly” and so after 2 years of waiting on me, we bought a ring and I cleared him to propose. For the first time in a loooong time, the ball was in his court. It was such a relief to have it out of my hands. I wasn’t nervous or anxious and I didn’t particularly care how long he waited (it ended up being about 2 months). I guess since he’d been ready and confident all that time I was quite sure I couldn’t do or say anything to talk him out of it.
December 6, 2010 9:48 am
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Oh definitely. There were definitely good times, when I felt exactly the way you’re describing. There were also times when it was just a little annoying, because dang it, I wanted to tell my family!
But then you get to the point where I’m the total anxious, over-analyzing type. The longer it got, the more that little voice nagged at me “Maybe he’s having second thoughts.” It didn’t matter, for me, that I KNEW he was 100% ready.
In the end, I can recognize that this was me being silly. But at the time … wow. What a roller-coaster those 2 months were!
December 6, 2010 10:16 am
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Our story falls right in the middle of you two’s, and good lord, I wish I’d had APW during that “pre-engaged” time (which I would not have called it)!! Since I “proposed” and gave him the ring to give to me, it was like my happy little secret was out, and then all the pins and needles of having to do my own waiting for him to find the “right moment,” was on. I was the one that took years to be “ready”, and then as soon as I decided I was, I had to wait more?!?! Such bad planning on my part! I too totally thought he was having second thoughts when he didn’t propose back right away, even though it was he who “proposed” to me over and over for years… and wow, did I get very silly!
December 6, 2010 1:59 pm
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I have only heard the term “pre-engaged” used on this site, but I like it and find that it fits me right now. My boyfriend and I are contemplating marriage. We’re not planning it, we don’t know for sure that it will happen, but we’re seriously thinking about it. It’s an exciting time!
February 7, 2011 3:05 am
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Maybe I’m just lucky and don’t know any people like this, but this is a real eye opener to me. I’ve been with my fella for about 8 years, living together for 4, (engaged for 1!) but never in that time did anyone say anything to me along those lines. Sure his grandparents jibed us after a couple of years about if we were getting married yet – we said yeah, maybe – one day.
I don’t think we were ever pre-engaged. This might be related to what Meg was saying the other day – that the wedding really changed things for her whereas other people had already made that change. We’d already made our choice so in a way it didn’t matter whether we got married or not, we kind of weren’t waiting for anything.
I wish I could have put that more eloquently, I hope it makes sense.
December 6, 2010 5:09 am
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I’m also lucky enough that people have never said the kinds of things in this post to me. My boyfriend and I have been in a long distance relationship for 3.5 years with at least 1.5 years to go. For me, to be in that kind of relationship did require a sort of … understanding. We always talk about “when” for our future, but I have no anticipation of getting engaged any time soon. Usually people just say “So … ::awkward pause:: Are you guys … planning to get married in the future?” Even my mom and my best friend have said this to me! I just laugh and say, “of course, but obviously not right now given the circumstances.”
But I’m definitely ready once the circumstances are right. Is reading APW a sign that you’re pre-engaged? Hmm.
December 9, 2010 10:56 am
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OMG Sarah. I feel ashamed for the people that have said these things to you, what century do they live in?
If it get unbearable, come to Sweden. In Sweden, cohabitant laws are strong, equality between sexes is better than in many other places and parents aren’t really expected to pay for their kid’s weddings. Because of these things, most people in Sweden get married in their mid-30s, when they already own a house together and have about two kids, one volvo and a dog. Or something like that. No pressure to get married here in Sweden, I promise!
I just got married with an english guy and it’s hilarious how different our cultures are. My swedish friends (all unmarried) were all like “you are marrying at such young age (27) and you’ve only been together a very short time (4 years. 3 years of living together)” while his english friends (all married. One even divorced) were more like “it’s about time, what took so long?”.
The only reason I’m considering pressuring my best friend and her boyfriend to get married asap is because it I love pretty stuff and if I don’t have a wedding-related reason for thinking about centerpieces soon, I’m afraid I will start throwing advanced dinner parties a la Martha Stewart and then I might as well move out to the suburbs and become a housewife and then my life will be over.
December 6, 2010 5:12 am
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Please adopt me, I would love to move to Sweden :)
December 6, 2010 8:44 am
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Bahaha the chicken! Hilarious, who knew roast chickens were filled with MAGIC!
On a similar note, now that I’m recently engaged (after a 4 year relationship about 3 years of which I would consider pre-engaged) it’s very weird for me that people are suddenly accepting us as a committed couple. I want to be like “The engagement was not a a change of plans, people! Thanks for catching up to what has been the plan for 3 years!” Idk, I understand their thought process but to me getting married was in the cards long before the ring came along. I’m not upset with them or hurt at all, it’s just like having a baby and then people congratulating you about it when the kid is potty trained.
December 6, 2010 5:20 am
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you know, I just know that is how my bf’s family is going to react. I feel like my family has really accepted him as part of our own, even though we are not married, nor do we have current plans to get married. He’s invited to all of our holidays, he’sbeen invited on vacation etc. The vibe I get from my parents is that they consider us a team.
My bf’s family though, I don’t feel like they view us as a team/ couple/ one entity. I feel like they still consider me ‘just another girlfriend’, even though we’ve been together 5 years now. They haven’t embraced me as my parents have embraced my bf. Maybe they never will. i don’t know. But its my guess that once it’s ‘more official’ by a proposal or getting married, they’ll finally consider us as a team.
December 6, 2010 5:34 am
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I can totally relate to that and it sucks. There were a few times I even got “We should take a family photo… mallory will you take it?” which was a bit of verbal stab considering I moved across the country for their son.
I think it’s just important to recognize that some of our parents are from a different generation in which the long term committed unmarried couple was not as common and acceptable as it is today. It definitely hurts to feel like they don’t consider you family but hopefully they still treat you well despite that.
December 6, 2010 8:43 am
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The fact that people only began to recognize us as a “forever” thing when we got formally engaged surprised me, too. Even my mother, who I consider to be pretty liberal/open-minded in many ways, did it… I think it irked me most coming from her, too, since she knew us as a couple so well before then. I spent the year-and-a-half engagement thinking (& sometimes saying) “How is the fact that we plan to be together forever a surprise to any of you?!” We’d been together for 3 years & living together for 2 (which required me overstaying my visa in his country–a situation I did NOT take lightly!), it’s not like I was planning on leaving at any point in the foreseeable future.
And I hate to say it, but it actually got worse after the wedding. It was like a new level of acceptance of the permanence. I was ever so slightly insulted by it, actually!
December 6, 2010 5:59 am
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Ugh, I know where you’re coming from, although I’m more or less ‘pre-engaged’ and nothing’s official yet simply because I feel 20 years old is too young!
I love my mother dearly, but she won’t even call my boyfriend of 3 years my boyfriend – he’s my ‘friend’. Seriously Mom? While I am young, I still feel like this is ridiculous. My sister who is 27 also has a boyfriend and he is also referred to as ‘her friend’. Although she did say my brother was dating someone.
December 6, 2010 11:58 am
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Heh. You’re not alone. I has been with this guy for like 4 years, and we were living together, and my mom still introduced him as “this is Morgan’s um friend.” Um friend was a running joke for a long time after.
December 6, 2010 12:15 pm
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My mother has done this as well. She was introducing my and my bf to old college friends at a wedding and she said “this is my daughter Meredith and her friend Jeff”.
Thanks Mom.
December 6, 2010 12:35 pm
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Is this a regional thing? My FH is from Alabama, and evvvvveryone there was introducing me to others as his “friend” even after we had been together for 3+ years. At first I was like, “do they not…know…we’re dating?” But he said that it’s just code for girlfriend/boyfriend and that everyone knows what you mean. It’s pretty confusing, but I’ve learned that they don’t actually mean it as a demotion. Not sure if this applies in your case.
December 6, 2010 6:58 pm
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“So, how’s married life?”
“Not all that different from non-married life. It’s different for everyone else, not for us.”
If I had a dollar for every time I had this exchange over the last three months …
Because that’s just it, for a lot of us. C and I lived together, had pets together, were building a life together. Our relationship did not fundamentally change, but people’s perceptions of us did. All of a sudden, spending holidays together (as opposed to apart with our separate families) is not only accepted but expected; making decisions as a team (such as one moving for the other’s job) is not taboo; sharing expenses (such as health insurance and bank accounts) is considered normal. These are all things that society tells us we shouldn’t do without “the ring.”
Also, don’t get me started on the “You’re not really and adult until …” line of thinking.
December 7, 2010 4:05 pm
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Oh man. I feel you on this one. My husband and I were together for 6 years, sharing holidays, and living together when we got engaged and all of a sudden my family acknowledged that our relationship was legit. It made me very upset that they hadn’t accepted us as a family yet, but that somehow felt jewelry could change that.
December 6, 2010 6:04 am
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Initially, I felt the same way… annoyed when people seemed to take us more seriously when we decided to marry. We were together 5 and a half years when we married and were very much committed to each other the entire relationship. But, I also think that people taking you more seriously after marriage puts a greater value on it. If it’s not different in that way, then why do it? And I don’t mean, at all, that people should get married SO that other people take them more seriously or value the relationship more. I do think that the value of it shows the power of marriage.
December 6, 2010 6:21 am
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Ugh! This is the worst. I had a particularly rough time with my family last year during the holiday season when I felt like my family wasn’t respecting my relationship with my boyfriend (together for 10 years, living together for 5 at the time). After that my boyfriend and I had a serious talk about our relationship and decided at some point soon we were going to plan to get married. I went to visit my family again not long after this and informed them that we were planning to get married. No, we weren’t engaged yet, but we were planning to get married. That talk seems to have helped my family realize that my relationship with my boyfriend isn’t going away. I’m glad that the talk I had with my family helped things, but at the same time it makes me mad that I had to declare a marriage in the future for them to finally get how committed we are to each other. Argh!
December 6, 2010 10:02 am
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I totally understand this – It was suuuuper annoying. Before we were engaged people (especially at work) would ask me all the time if we were still together. We’d been together 3 years when I started my job and I never ever brought any relationship drama to work, so all they ever heard were good things. But when we got engaged it was suddenly like I was in a real relationship, not just passing time with some slob until a better one came along.
Lame!!
December 6, 2010 6:20 am
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We have also felt that people actually are beginning to see us as real adults since we’ve gotten engaged. I don’t understand that one. I guess the magic ring makes you an official adult too!
December 6, 2010 6:25 am
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Call me weird, but the engagement and the marriage did make a difference in the seriousness of our relationship. Had we broken up a week before we got engaged, it would have been sad, but that’s all it would have been. By announcing our engagement we were publicly saying how serious we were and that we were planning to commit to each other for life. That’s a whole other step up the commitment ladder (for us) from dating seriously. And the marriage was yet another step up the commitment ladder. Because we could have broken off our engagement, and as heartbreaking as it would have been, we hadn’t yet made those vows. But now that we’re married I feel a totally different level of commitment. If a big, huge, serious issue had arisen while dating or engaged, a breakup would have been a possibility to consider. Now it’s not. And I think our families and friends recognize those different levels of commitment, which is why they react the way you’ve described.
December 6, 2010 6:42 am
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I completely agree that getting married changed things for us in a way that I hadn’t even expected. But I guess for some reason I just didn’t see getting engaged as being the next step. Maybe for me, it’s sort of like getting a job offer. As soon as I get the phone call, I’m celebrating. But receiving the actual offer letter doesn’t solidify the fact for me. And it was the same when we got engaged. But I think you and I just further prove that it’s unfair for society (and busybodies) to assume that we’re all feeling the same way about life’s major moments. What might be a game-changer for you is just another day in Maddie-land for me.
December 6, 2010 1:45 pm
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Heh. Agree on all of the above.
But the perspective on the other side is that as someone not intimate with someone I’m not going to interogate person X about the seriousness of her relationship. Some people live together because they’ve found their life partners, some people are dating and aren’t that serious, and I have no way of knowing which one it is. I know plently of people who live with someone and ended up breaking up without the break up being super significant – the way I’d expect a divorce to be. Obviously there are clues and things – I was pretty sure my friend who’s been with her guy for 8 years and making decisions together was in it for the long haul and I could treat her as someone with a life partner – but it’s a lot easier to be told straight out “this is my family” and then you can happily be “okay, check! will treat as such” instead of guessing what this particular person means by the words “dating”.
December 6, 2010 7:14 am
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Oy, I know this one well. Just before getting engaged (though well after talking about marriage) we announced that we would be moving across the country. People (my mother mostly) were worried and kept bringing up things like “well, I don’t think you should just follow some boy” and “if it doesn’t work out, you can always come home.” Not like we hadn’t been together for years at that point. But MAN, the second I showed up with a ring on my hand and we used the magic word “engaged” … no one was concerned in the slightest about me picking up and moving my life 3000 miles away.
Even more interesting, we weren’t considered a valid, committed couple by HIS parents until we were actually married. As in, THE DAY BEFORE THE WEDDING, I was just a fad in their son’s life, to them. Once we’d been pronounced, and kissed in their viewing, “we” were accepted.
I don’t understand it in the slightest.
December 6, 2010 7:50 am
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Hmmm, my boyfriend made *me* roast chicken last night. Maybe he’s hoping I’ll pop the question!
December 6, 2010 8:36 am
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this is so so good. when i was pre-engaged, it wasn’t me but josh who felt all of the “hurry up and do it already” pressure. it was like people assumed he was afraid of commitment. when the actual reality was that i was the one who placed “after i finish my master’s” limits on when he could propose (in my case, code for “i’m not ready yet”)
it’s frustrating that the assumption always is that it’s the girl gunning for the altar and the man dragging his heels. (“you should just propose to him” or “you must be so bitter”)
December 6, 2010 5:42 am
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This was my experience too (except minus the grad school thing – kudos for you!) Husband was ready to tie the knot long before I was. I think we arrived at “let’s stay together forever!!” at the same time, but for him that meant “let’s get engaged right now!! wedding next week?” and for me it meant “let’s stay right here for like, 2 more years and then I’ll feel ready to sign legal documents and throw a wedding.”
That was difficult enough to deal with within our relationship, but to have outsiders accusing him of dragging his feet was particularly painful. I always wanted to defend him and say it was me who wasn’t ready, but that just led to a conversation about what was wrong with me. And it definitely was never a constructive conversation that made me more ready to get married.
December 6, 2010 6:52 am
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We went to a wedding last fall and people — our friends! — kept asking me when we were going to get married. One woman (a sweet, sweet married woman, mind you) told me, “he already knows you’re the one, he told us so. It’s coming.” I wasn’t quite sure what to say to that. (Thanks? I’m not worried that we won’t end up together? Don’t worry, I’m not pining? What’s it to you?) The first few I laughed off, but it got so annoying that by the end of the weekend, when people would ask me that question, I’d find himself and be like, “Here, so-and-so wants to know when we’re getting married. I’m going to the bar.”
Little did I know! On the way home, I found out that people had been asking him as well, especially guys who were already married. I had no idea that the expectations of others would manifest themselves so similarly on both of us.
December 6, 2010 8:11 am
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My go-to answer is, “We’re eloping tonight, of course! Isn’t my wedding attire beautiful?” (Works *best* when I’m wearing my Whalers sweatshirt, but is a winner the rest of the time, too.) People are taken aback and then just laugh along with me (us, actually. I’ve convinced him that this is a great response and he now uses it frequently). It makes the whole question less awkward and allows the conversation to move on to more entertaining topics.
December 6, 2010 4:02 pm
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OT, but obscure former NHL Hockey reference FTW!
(I’m 2 hrs from Hartford … my city mourns the loss of the Whalers!)
December 7, 2010 4:07 pm
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Replace “wanting to get married soon” with “wanting babies soon”? And you have my husband ready as anything and me dragging my heels. It’s sometimes hard to be the contrarian female. :)
December 6, 2010 12:22 pm
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Not just you! Mine is all, “if an accident happens, that’s cool,” and I’m very much taking my pill religiously. :)
December 6, 2010 2:05 pm
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An IUD means that one day soon I’ll actually have to make a concious decision about things… On purpose accidents makes my planner soul hyperventilate.
December 6, 2010 2:39 pm
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with any luck, planned parenthood will stop covering your birth control and you’ll get preggo the week before you get on insurance.
…or is that just me? ;)
December 6, 2010 3:34 pm
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Sarah, this is great! Thanks for contributing.
I’ve been with my boyfriend 2.5 years, living together 1.5. Luckily I don’t get any flack from anyone! We live in a small city where many friends have been in their relationships for 3, 4, 7 years with no talk of weddings… on the other hand, that woman I know who’s been with her boyfriend for 7 years with no wedding is not happy about it, but she does make us look like spring chickens in comparison! Plus I don’t think my mother would mind if I waited until I’m 30 to get married (5 years off) :)
December 6, 2010 6:03 am
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I was so excited to read this post this morning because it perfectly expressed all the frustration that I’ve felt for the past two years. I was so psyched about it that I posted a link to it on my Facebook page. Unfortunately, minutes after I put it up, my mother commented back with a snide remark about how disappointed she is in my choices and how I’ve “turned my back” on the way that she and my father raised me. After reading that, now I’m sitting at my desk at work trying to fight back tears. I could really use a big cyber-hug from Team Practical, because right now I feel utterly rejected and alone. :(
December 6, 2010 6:05 am
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Boo! Moms can be so wrapped up in their own stuff sometimes they end up saying super hurtful things to their daughters. Stay strong, girlfriend!
December 6, 2010 6:22 am
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WOAH. this is awful awful awful. Huge internet-hugz and a kick in the pants to facebook. I’m not sure what else to say.
December 6, 2010 6:22 am
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Oh no! *Hugs* *Hugs* *Hugs*
I’m sorry your mom said something to you like that, especially in such a public forum. If I were you, I’d give myself permission to delete the comment. That’s totally unfair of her.
December 6, 2010 6:28 am
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YIKES. i’m crazy confused about how using a term like “pre-engaged” would be abandoning some sense of morality or “being raised correctly” or whatever. making a decision different from that of your parents does not always connote a rejection of your parents. yeah?
i’m so sorry, katrina! major hugs from over here.
December 6, 2010 6:34 am
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Cyber hug from APW! Moms can be harsh sometimes, usually because they love you and don’t want to let you go and make your own decisions without them. But making and standing by these decisions is part of starting your own baby family.
December 6, 2010 6:41 am
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Big hug!!
December 6, 2010 7:02 am
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yeah, seriously. xxxxxxx. oh, hell. xoxoxoxo.
December 6, 2010 7:07 am
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HUGS! We affirm you!
December 6, 2010 7:15 am
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Support hugs!
December 6, 2010 7:26 am
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What the eff?! It’s unfortunate, but true – parents can be so CRUEL sometimes. Stand strong Katrina!! You know how to live your life and you’re doing a good job. :)
December 6, 2010 7:37 am
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Oh, lady …. ::HUGS::
My mom is the same way, I know how badly it can hurt.
We’re all here for you, sweetie.
December 6, 2010 7:53 am
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HUGS!!!
I know it was only a matter of time before guilt-tripping family members started using facebook as a medium for shaming, but this is really shitty.
Keep the faith, you can’t ‘turn your back’ on your cyber family as long as you’re being true to yourself :)
December 6, 2010 8:18 am
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Yikes! That’s awful. Hugs and permission to delete and treat yourself extra well for the rest of the day.
Kudos to you for posting something you believe in even if it draws flak from the ones you love.
December 6, 2010 8:19 am
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more hugs more hugs!
December 6, 2010 8:41 am
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::HUGS::
Parents have a hard time accepting the choices of their children when they have deeply engrained (often religious) views. Comments like the ones your mom made generally come from a genuine, albeit misguided, place of care, concern and almost certainly hurt feelings. Sometimes it’s hard for people to let go of their conceptions about what is the right and wrong way to live, especially when it comes to marriage.
Know that your choices are valid and your mama loves you (this from the crazy liberal daughter of a Mexican Catholic).
We love you too.
::more hugs::
December 6, 2010 8:52 am
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Thank you. I’ve gone back and re-read your comment several times this morning. It’s hard sometimes to keep in mind that my mom is doing this because she feels it’s in my best interest. A lot of the time I feel like I want to shut her out of my life completely. But in the end, she IS my mom, and I really DO want to have a healthy relationship with her. Thanks for the reminder. :)
December 6, 2010 10:35 am
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That’s awful… :hug: It’s the shame thing again isn’t it? Doing stuff differently from what our mothers did is apparently turning our backs on them… Have a nice cup of tea. I think it’s something to do with not being able to let their kids grow up you know — of course we aren’t going to behave exactly as we were raised to, it’s called having our own identity. Have another cup of tea. Chocolate?
December 6, 2010 9:12 am
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Hugs, and yes, shame blasters activate. You’re doing NOTHING wrong, being a strong woman, as Sarah said to me in an emai, “Moving forward slowly with great joy.”
December 6, 2010 9:34 am
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ohmygoodness, thank you for the support, everyone! I cannot tell you how much this has meant to me this morning.
This hasn’t been the first time that my mom has chosen to “play dirty” regarding this subject, and I’m very much afraid to see how our arguments will evolve as the actual wedding planning gets underway. I have a feeling that I’ll be relying a lot on Team Practical to help me get through this, because I’m one of those unlucky girls who doesn’t have a strong “in real life” support system. (Other than my loving and equally-practical boyfriend, of course!)
Shame blasters, activate!! *KA-POW!!!!!*
December 6, 2010 10:32 am
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Pew pew!!
And HUGS.
:)
December 6, 2010 2:08 pm
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Late on this, but add me to the chime-in of support. What your mom said was NOT OK, it’s downright abusive. It’s not like you’ve taken up a life of crime or have yourself hooked on drugs. You’ve made a completely legitimate, adult decision that WORKS for you and your partner, and no one has a right to comment on it unless you invite them to do so. (And, in this case, posting it on Facebook was not inviting comment – rather, it was a ballsy response to all of the uninvited comments you’ve received!)
December 7, 2010 4:11 pm
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Shame blasting, check.
Community support, check!
*HUGS*
You are worthy. Your choices about your relationship, and how you choose to describe it, are worthy. Blessings.
January 11, 2011 4:54 pm
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* BIG GIANT MAMA BEAR HUGS* It’s so sad that the people we love the most can also hurt us the most. Hang in there and stick to your guns, you aren’t doing anything wrong! Just different. Hopefully your mom will come around to that realization sooner than later.
December 6, 2010 11:19 am
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*HUGS*. Parents can be just as hurtful as strangers sometimes, if not moreso. Hope you find comfort in our support of you!
December 6, 2010 1:42 pm
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I am sorry someone said that to you…yuck. I’m feeling ya on that one, I just got my first, “You’re not going to fit in your wedding dress!” comment…people, people, people.
In our pre-engaged time, the first question out of everyone’s mouth was, “So, when do you think the ring is coming????”. Like that really is all I thought about, all the time. I love how you point out that you want your friends to be happy for you in the RIGHT NOW, not just be thrilled when you finally get that lusted after, magic ring.
What you just outlined was what I was thinking the entire time before we were engaged. Especially the “please be nice to him” portion. He really isn’t an immature moron, thank you.
December 6, 2010 6:08 am
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Seriously, if me being in a bad mood after a bad day is enough to keep him from proposing, we definitely should not be getting married. I’m pretty sure there will still be bad days from time to time after the wedding.
December 6, 2010 8:29 am
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I hear you. SO LOUD!!!
We had a few months between saying to each other “I trust you to spend the rest of my life with” and the ring being got and given, and yes, in those few months many of my friends got engaged and yes, we had a lot of ‘dress’ conversations, and yes! That was when I started reading APW.
In that period of time we discovered that we both want a lot of the same practical things regarding both wedding and marriage. We couldn’t have worked it out without talking about it.
Yet many of my friends advised me not to mention the ‘m’ word because ‘put too much pressure on him and he’ll run a mile’.
And when it came to the ring, that was the least of it. If that’s all it was about, I’d have bought it myself.
December 6, 2010 6:13 am
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I love the chicken. Really, that’s my favorite. I’m wondering if I can replace it with a quiche. . .
But I feel a little torn about being pre-engaged in a same-sex relationship— my girlfriend and I know without a doubt that we’re going to get married, and if situations were different we’d probably already have gotten married or would be planning our wedding. But, living in Utah, I think we’ve hesitated to get engaged because the day we can get married (legally or not. . . I don’t really want to get married in Utah, although that could change) is at least a couple of years off. I keep wondering if I should suggest us getting rings and making it official, but we’re both poor grad students at present, and really, the point of getting officially engaged would be to proclaim our seriousness to other people.
So it’s odd. But I do wish pre-engagement relationships was more universally recognized as having value, but I’m in the circumstance where I’m not sure many people would appreciate an actual engagement or marriage any more. It’s a weird headspace for me.
December 6, 2010 6:18 am
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Dude, UTAH. It is tough on all of us. I was 32 when I got married and you would have thought that most folks around here thought of me as some sort of mutant. People would ask if I was married and when I said no kind of stare at me wondering what was wrong with me, trying to spot the defective part.
As a fellow Utahn, I have one question, are you going to join us for the meet-up?
December 6, 2010 7:20 am
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“Utahn” is possibly my new favorite word ever. Kinda makes me wish I lived there.
December 6, 2010 8:44 am
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Oh, Utah. Living in Salt Lake is great, but my parents live down south in Utah County. . . that leads to some interesting times.
I would love to come to meet-up! I’m mostly a lurker but I admire all the fabulous people here to pieces.
December 6, 2010 9:15 pm
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My partner and I started dating in September 2005, decided to get married in February 2006, and bought simple rings (stainless steel rings from a company called teno) together in April 2006. We didn’t start telling people until end of 2008, and even then it was only 4-5 close friends. We finally set a date and started telling people in August 2009 (the wedding is in September 2011). For us, it was a perfect timeline – the rings made the commitment a bit more visible to us, but they are not something that anyone would comment on or really notice.
I think that I considered us “committed” rather than “engaged” during this time period. We took the time to figure out privately what marriage meant for us, whether we wanted to have a big wedding here in FL and then do a legal wedding somewhere else, or do neither, and other big issues. Having that time really helped, but I know that being clear with each other that yes, we did plan to get married, was good too. If we hadn’t had that time I think it some of those issues would have been much more difficult. It also helped with the family angle too – I think our parents were in a much better place to hear this year that we’re getting married, rather than five months into the relationship.
For me, I think the idea of the “engagement” period has to do with telling people our plans. I still have trouble saying “engaged” or “fiancee” – but no trouble saying “we’re getting married.” I just really dislike the baggage and expectations that come with the official status of engaged.
On that note…I did change my facebook status to engaged last year, but I had previously taken my gender off the profile, so I didn’t get the flood of weight loss and laser hair removal ads that others have reported.
December 6, 2010 11:45 am
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Yes…I always just said, “We’re getting married.” That’s the only way I felt comfortable explaining things.
December 7, 2010 7:08 am
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This is smart stuff. I personally never had to deal with pre-engagement issues, as we became formally engaged pretty shortly after we started really discussing the possibility, and had barely been dating long enough for most people to start viewing us as A Couple. But I find often the posts I appreciate most on APW are the ones that describe my own experience least. Thanks for sharing these thoughts!
December 6, 2010 6:21 am
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I find that too.
We also had things move pretty quickly and a lot of people found that very unusual. Admittedly I had a kind of ‘pre-engaged’ period, but it was a matter of a few months at most, not years.
December 6, 2010 10:00 am
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My god where was this post 2 years ago? Oh well, it STILL felt good to read even though my wedding is this week.
I’m glad that from the comments it seems like not everyone experiences this stress, but I sure did and it was an awful time for me. Sarah, you’re brilliant!
December 6, 2010 6:31 am
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THIS WEEK.
aaaaahhhh!
December 6, 2010 6:35 am
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Kerry. THIS WEEK!
December 6, 2010 7:21 am
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THIS WEEK!!!! :D
December 6, 2010 7:27 am
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I’m AHHHHHHing right there with you, lovelies.
December 6, 2010 10:12 am
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Alkaseltzer worked great for me and my stomach jitters the morning of, btw.
December 6, 2010 7:50 pm
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And you have time to comment on APW?!
Oh who am I kidding, I procrastinated with APW, too. :)
YAYAYAYAY! :) Have an amazing week.
December 7, 2010 4:14 pm
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“Please encourage me to talk to my boyfriend about our future and delete the word “pressure” from your conversations about that. Call me new-fashioned, but I believe that as an educated woman in my late twenties with my own assets, ideas, experience and opinions, I shouldn’t be waiting on my partner to make one of the biggest decisions of our lives on his own.”
This so much! It frustrates me to no end when my friends are in relationships where they refuse to talk to their partners about marriage and engagements because they’ve boughten the whole “scare him off” bullsh*t. I am constantly telling them, just go talk to him about it. I don’t know what he’s thinking because I’m not him. He knows though and can actually tell you.
December 6, 2010 6:32 am
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Thank you for this, Sarah (and Meg, for all the great engagement posts recently)!
I don’t consider myself “pre-engaged” in any way, but we’ve been together for six years and know we’ll probably get married in the next four or so, so this really speaks to me. I’m a little private about the whole thing, so when people ask me about it, I never want to give the whole wonderful story of “well, we’re waiting until we’ve both had a chance to settle down into ourselves for a while and hopefully finish grad school and have some more direction.” I suppose part of my hesitation to say “pre-engaged” comes from not being too comfortable with letting the whole world know the details of us. I do sometimes wonder if people are feeling badly for me and not realizing it is entirely a decision we consciously made together.
Luckily, we’re still young and most people here don’t get married until later anyway, so we aren’t really feeling too much pressure or getting many prying questions, but it does happen, and they get tiresome, and more common every year.
December 6, 2010 6:42 am
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Whenever friends or family prompted us with engagement questions, my snarky response to them was always “BABY FIRST”. That usually silenced a lot of people :)
Love this post so much. Thank you! Happiness is contagious… so thanks for spreading it on.
December 6, 2010 6:44 am
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Haha that’s an amazing reply – I might steal it! It would certainly be keeping in my family’s tradition!
December 6, 2010 7:00 am
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I wanted to live with my prospective husband for a year, as a trial, before committing to live with him forever. My family was uneasy about it, but mostly understood. But I had one uncle that kept asking “So when are you getting married?” and giving me this look like “Girl, God is judging your sinning self.” (What do I care? I’m not Christian!) I managed to finally brush him off with a joking “When he gets me a bigger stone!” and pointing at my promise ring, rinsed and repeated until he got the hint. (The promise ring, BTW, became my engagement ring after the year was up, and will soon be my wedding ring, too.)
December 6, 2010 6:44 am
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I think these Do’s and Don’ts can also go for someone who’s in a wonderful relationship with a fantastic person who they have no intention of marrying. I’m in my mid-twenties and currently dating an old friend who I care for deeply, as he does for me, but we both know we’re too different to make a long-term commitment. However, at the moment our relationship works for our lifestyle, we make each other happy, and we feel way too young to be worried about finding “the one” or “becoming a spinster.” We want the best for each other and down the road we know that will mean ending things (and since we’ve already paved the way with a loving, honest and open relationship, we *hope* things will end amicably. Probably when I save enough money to move to San Francisco!) In the meantime, it’s annoying to get comments like, “really? You’re 25 and your relationship isn’t going to lead to marriage? Why are you dating him?” or “Be really sweet to him and I’m sure he’ll change his mind” or “Don’t waste your time making him happy!” or the worst: “Obviously he’s not a good guy and isn’t worthy of your relationship time.” I’m sure the comments are well-meaning (sort of) but I wish everyone would lay off.
And PS, I’m obviously not engaged, pre-engaged or any sort of engaged, but I still read APW’s every post! Love it here!
December 6, 2010 6:45 am
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Thanks for sharing this Amy–I would love to hear more about relationships like this, as I have a lot of friends struggling with this type of issue right now. It’s hard for them to be 27 and happy, but not see the relationship leading to marriage and kids, which is what they want… They question whether/when/how one should give up day-to-day contentment in pursuit of someone “better” in order to reach a goal (marriage/kids)? (I wonder this myself about job/careers…)
December 6, 2010 2:16 pm
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I actually wrote in an Ask Team Practical question about this. I’m 31 and dating a guy I’m not sure I want to marry. But not because I’m not sure I want to get married (to someone, one day), but I’m not sure how to make that decision. And I do feel pressure from the outside (and from the inside) that I should know how to make this kind of decision, but I don’t. I’d LOVE to hear the stories of how people DECIDED to marry the person they are marrying (or married to), or how they decided that someone wasn’t for them.
December 7, 2010 11:29 am
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Could not agree more to this entire post. My fiance and I were dating for almost seven years before we got engaged, so there were lots of “when’s the wedding going to be???” questions leading up to our actual engagement. We got engaged when we felt financially stable, were done with grad school, and were in the same time zone (long distance for three years, oy). I can’t understand why some people think it’s okay to ask personal relationship questions about people who aren’t married. I don’t think it’s okay to ask my married friends/family members how their relationships are going and when they’re planning on making major life decisions.
December 6, 2010 6:46 am
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“I’m not looking for a “solution” to my pre-engagement. Being pre-engaged is not a “problem.””
EXACTLY! You rock. Another one of these situations where the community of women at large is so quick to make assumptions. Why are we so hard on ourselves and eachother?
December 6, 2010 6:51 am
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Yes! This was my thought too. This part really got me too:
“There aren’t a finite amount of engagements and this girl hasn’t “stolen” mine from me. Seriously. Let me be happy for that couple without looking at me as if “thou protest too much.””
I feel like way too often women are expected to be jealous or resentful when really all they feel is happiness for someone else.
December 7, 2010 2:22 pm
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So, so timely. Congrats to you for not becoming “that girl.” You know, “that girl” that makes her boyfriend feel guilty because she’s ready and he’s not and complains constantly to her friends that he hasn’t proposed. I only say this because I HAVE BECOME THAT GIRL! (I had to shout it because I am so disappointed in myself). My mind has been spinning for months now. I keep convincing myself that he’s about to propose at any moment. Trip to Mexico? Proposal on the beach! Anniversary? He’ll pull a ring out over dinner! Weekend in Chicago? Must be the ferris wheel at Navy Pier. I feel like I ruin everything fun because I’m so disappointed.
I don’t want to ask him. Like Paranoid Libra, I wear the figurative pants in a lot of ways in our relationship and I really wanted this to come from him. He knows I’m ready and I certainly don’t want him to do something he’s not comfortable with. So instead, I have become a passive aggressive pain in the butt. I’ve found myself putting off important conversations with him because they “should wait until we’re engaged.” On top of my guilt for becoming that anti-feminist “that girl” I feel like I’ve already given us both a sour taste about something that should have been easy and natural. I’m goint to try harder to chill out.
December 6, 2010 6:52 am
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Just to play devil’s advocate…why put off those important conversations? If they’re about your future together, it’s good to know where you both stand on issues, and you can start negotiating any points of conflict. And if those discussions and negotiations go well, it might just make him more comfortable about going forward with an official proposal.
December 6, 2010 7:02 am
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You’re absolutely right. But I have these long conversations with myself that go something like this: “I’d really like to look at that house I saw with the three bedrooms. We would need more bedrooms if we had kids. Wait, you aren’t even engaged, much less married with kids. But it would be hard to move the same year we got married because weddings are expensive and it would be a pain in the butt if we waited until I got pregnant, which means we should totally move into a bigger house now. We would really need to work on his credit. I don’t think his credit is great. But you don’t know because you haven’t talked about it. Well, it seems like it would be an easier thing for us to discuss in pre-marital counseling. But you can’t go to premarital counseling until your pre-marital and all. Exacly, which is why he should propose tonight. Maybe I should go remind him about my biological clock…”
Exhausting…
December 6, 2010 7:15 am
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Yup I bought the house of our future already(and no he isn’t on the loan). For him the proposal is important. He also used to believe the ring had to cost a lot and have diamonds on it….care of APW he changed his mind…and yes I “accidently” left up an engagement or rings post. :)
I avoided big talks too to avoid being “that girl” I realized we only became fully ready as a couple emotionally this past year. And I think the whole me buying a house did bring more of marriage talk up to the surface. I did have him come with me to look and give his opinions.
Now he is so very thankful we have a house together. His name won’t be on anything though until marriage. (he had bad luck with that before so I can’t blame him and terrible credit)
December 6, 2010 10:18 am
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I loved our “pre-engagement” counseling. Though it could be called anything. Why wait until engagement if you want to talk through important stuff with somebody? You could call it “our relationship is awesome and we want to work to see if we can make it even more awesome” counseling, maybe?
December 6, 2010 10:20 am
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bahahah oh Ruby_Lou. that whole string of thoughts basically verbatim (plus the “Trip to Mexico? Anniversary! He’ll have the ring over dinner!”), went through my head for probably 2 months straight. for me it was because I didn’t want to talk about it with any of my friends for various reasons, and not that Zach wouldn’t let me talk about things, but I didn’t want to fully introduce him to the crazy in my head because I knew it was temporary (and a big part of me had bought into the idea that I would somehow “ruin things” if I talked about it too much and spoiled the surprise). so yeah just fyi, you are not alone!
but I do agree with others that it’s never too early to talk through some of the bigger issues, and looking back on my own experience I only wish I had been more vocal about how the “pre-engaged” period (though we didn’t call it that at the time) was making me feel, and I wish I had asked him how he was feeling too because I’m sure he wasn’t just cool as a cucumber. It’s been said already, but so true: talking about it doesn’t have to be Pressure, and it’s not going to ruin anything.
December 6, 2010 1:33 pm
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Let me just say that if you wear the figurative pants, you wear them. If he feels badly about that, then he feels badly. Everyone has to be willing to accept the consequences of their choices. A proposal isn’t going to turn him into the wage earner. If power in a relationship comes from earning money, we as women do not have to prop up, in traditional ways, those men who make untraditional choices. “Feeling like a man” shouldn’t come at the expense of a strong woman bound to wait for some ceremonial proposal. Any propping up and reassurance that this balance is OK needs to happen at a deeper and more honest level. Now, if YOU want him to take the traditional male role in this, because it fills something in YOUR heart, that’s a separate issue. I understand that situation very well.
December 6, 2010 7:23 am
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Thanks to everyone for the support! Just to address the “figurative pants” situation. By that I mean, I am the (primary) wage earner and not looking to make him the wage earner. We have very different career expectations. I am also the plan maker, the schedule keeper, the present buyer, the bill payer, and the general all around household manager (read: I call the handyman when the garage door doesn’t open and I make sure the bug man comes twice a year, etc.).
But that doesn’t mean that his contributions to our home, or his career, are any less substantial. He is the reminder of birthdays, comforter of workplace drama, smoother of ruffled feathers, visitor of my Mom when she’s sad, bringer of balloons and Pez dispensers when I’m sad, social director, and overall provider of kindness and fun in our home.
He is not uncomfortable in his role, and neither am I. I want HIM to propose because a) I know he will when he’s ready so if I proposed it would only rush him, and b) I’d like him to own the plans for this particulary event. (Both of which I have communicated to him, so it’s not like he’s in the dark here).
December 6, 2010 11:29 am
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Oh my god. I just need to say that you and I are basically the same person. This whole string of your comments is like I wrote them. That is all.
November 20, 2012 7:22 pm
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I think from time to time this happens to the best of us. Try not to be too hard on yourself for it. We all live in a society where there is a ton of pressure around engagement/marriage. We’re bound to give in from time to time and forget what we know about OUR relationship. But remember that you know your partner and you know your relationship and as long as you remember that, you’ll come back down to earth. Big breath, you’re not alone. :)
December 6, 2010 7:14 am
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I agree, Ashley – not only are we not supposed to “pressure” our boyfriends in the pre-engagement stage, we are also not supposed to get anxious or even think about when the engagement is coming. I think that is completely unrealistic and unfair in a society where weddings have become such a huge focus. The most important thing is to keep sight of the reasons that you want to be engaged and married to your partner, rather than just the end of engagement itself. Keep building on these reasons, and the engagement will come soon enough.
December 6, 2010 7:44 am
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I had a hard time with this before we were engaged too- I’d say things like “When/if we get married…you know, if that happens….we might maybe want to think about possibly looking for houses in x neighborhood. But you know, maybe” Because I was soooooo afraid of being “that girl.” I didn’t want to be the girl who pressures her boyfriend into marriage! I avoided bringing it up so he didn’t think I was just after shiny things.
Then I realized that in talking about marriage, there’s a big difference in being “that girl” and “the girl who wants to know where our relationship stands.” Not being the girl who pressured her guy into marriage does not mean you must be the girl that waits patiently (or not patiently, in my case) for him to decide he’s ready and then propose so that its a complete surprise to you. So I sucked it up, started the conversation with “I want to preface this by saying that this conversation is by no means about shiny things or white dresses. It is about us, and our future.”
We hear way too much about how talking about marriage to your partner makes you a pushy woman. But this assumes that all women always want to get married all the time (after all, why would you need to talk to him about it? Clearly you want to get married, you are just waiting for him). Here at Team Practical, we know that’s not the case. And we know all guys aren’t just putting off marriage until they feel like they have to/might as well. So talk about it! Talking about your future does NOT make you “that girl.” Forget that piece of cultural noise.
December 6, 2010 7:32 am
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I agree with the different sides of cultural pressure. We’ve been talking about long term since very early when we were just beginning to date, since i had just begun a 2-year plan that involved likely moving out of town and wanted to know if he was OK with that. Plus, I am religious and wanted to nail down raising kids in my faith early on ; ) So it’s been on the table for awhile, and himself has never been weird about it at all. Yet sometimes I still choke on the word “marriage” when it comes to talking about even 5 years down the road. Oh Cosmo and your ilk, you have made me so crazy!
December 6, 2010 8:25 am
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OMG! Thank you for those starter conversation words! I can’t believe I didn’t think about them myself. Amazing how hard these conversations can be to start when you are so anxious about it AND afraid of being “that girl”.
Also, a big thanks to everyone for the wise thoughts on this topic. I’m also waiting for my Significantly Handsome Other (I hate the word boyfriend too) to finish his PhD so we can finally be together in the same state. I’m not good at waiting for things and for the past few months I’ve been confused as why the waiting is making me miserable, feeling crazy, sad, insecure, stupid, desperate, powerless, lame, etc etc despite the fact that we are in love and I sooooo look forward to our future together.
All of your post have been so reassuring. I’m feeling much more normal and empowered. So many of you have gotten through it, I can too. Thanks Team Practical!
December 7, 2010 1:21 pm
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Oh man, I went through about 6 months of this after we had been together for about a year. I ahve no idea where it came from and I hated it. I think it was a symptom af realizing he was the one for me coupled with the extremem pressure to get married when you find “the one”
There was a lot of guilt tripping, several bouts of drunken why-don’t-you-love-me crying, and lots of passive agressive behavior. I believe the fact that he stuck around after that a testament to our pairing.
So how did I move past it? I made a concerted effort to stop shying away from the conversations I thought I couldn’t have unless we were engaged. It was freaking scary.
The first thing I did was apologize for the hysterics. I explained that I loved him very much and wanted to know that I wasn’t alone in seeing us together forever. And then we started talking about our life goals (aside from marriage) kids, and (dun.dun.dun) money!!!!
Eventually I felt secure that he wanted the same things that I do and I got past the when when when of it all.
Good luck :)
December 6, 2010 9:02 am
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Kudos for admitting — and owning up to — how you feel about it. It ain’t easy being THAT girl when you’re not “supposed” to be.
December 6, 2010 9:15 am
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I’ve been calling mine and my man’s situation “pre-engagement negotiations”. We’re having those important and hard conversations now to find out if we really want to get married (which it is looking like we do!). My boyfriend sees the engagement as “planning the wedding” and why would we plan a wedding to then find out we’re super different about kids, career outlooks, finances, etc. I’m talking with my pastor to get some guidance as to what questions to ask and hash out, sort of pre-premartial counseling I suppose.
I’ve found that lots of our “important” conversations just sort of come up, like after a friend had her baby or some friends moved in together. The topic is at hand, we’re not stressed, and have some time to relax and think.
PS: I’ve noticed myself sort of slipping toward being THAT GIRL too! And then I think about why I’m feeling so pressured from everybody else and look at my great relationship and how it is slowly and thoughtfully progressing, and then I tend to chill a bit.
December 7, 2010 1:54 pm
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Good god, I needed this post – not because I’ve been particularly bothered by comments from people (although there definitely have been some), but because I’ve been buying into a lot of that dialogue.
It’s so easy to fall into that trap of thinking that there’s something wrong with me, or some huge lack of love for me on my boyfriend’s part, because we aren’t getting married yet. Or that I’m pathetic for reading a wedding blog when I’m not even engaged, or for reading books about marriage. But it would be so contrary to who I am to not (exhaustively) research something I’m thinking about doing, and to discuss it extensively with my partner – that’s how I process things, and how I come to a conclusion of what I want and believe in. That it’s not pressure to ask about timelines, about what his reasons for them are, for his feelings on how we might shape a wedding and our lives together – it’s, as you said, a sustainable relationship.
I was having a big insecure fit about this on the weekend, and questioning whether and how I could believe that my boyfriend wants to be with me long-term if he wasn’t ready to “commit,” and he pointed out that we just bought a house and a dog – not exactly things one does with a short-term fling. And that the baby family we’ve already started building together IS a commitment, and a huge one.
December 6, 2010 6:59 am
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Oh I so feel you on this. I love this: ” I was having a big insecure fit” ahahaha. me too. See my post below where I sound all sure and secure. Which I am, probably 90% of the time but every now again I have a big insecure fit and I think what I love about APW so much is that it makes me feel like my big insecure fits are normal.
Also amen to processing things through research and discussion, me too and I think sometimes it’s really hard to admit to researching your wedding and your marriage when you’re not engaged. But seriously, how are you supposed to know you want to get engaed if you haven’t processed what it means to you and to him as individuals and a couple?!
I love APW.
December 6, 2010 7:10 am
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Absolutely! I spend a lot of time reading about weddings and marriages, and also about pregnancy and childbirth. I do the same thing with trips I’m thinking about taking, grad schools I might apply to, and professions I’m considering. That doesn’t make me sad or desperate; it makes me informed and conscious.
December 6, 2010 8:38 am
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Oh my god yes, I read about birth all the time. NOT because I’m planning on having a baby anytime in the near future, but because when we finally are ready to talk about that, I want to know what I’m getting into!
And reading about weddings before getting engaged makes soooo much sense, because then you can have a plan set so that when you do get engaged and tell people, you’re ready to shoot down their suggestions because you already know what you want. I can’t imagine getting engaged and then starting to research things – I think seeing prices on the k**t might make me immediately reconsider!
December 6, 2010 10:02 am
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As always perfect timing. I was actually seriously considering emailing Meg this weekend with some questions/food for thought on this topic.
For me, it really goes back to the whole shame concept. I am pre-engaged and happy. I want to get married, we are planning on getting married but we’re not engaged. But as much as I hate to admit it, I hate the term boyfriend. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. I am embarrassed every time I have to bring him up in conversation and refer to him as my boyfriend, mostly I just call him by his name and figure people will assume whatever they want about who he is. Every time I say boyfriend I want to say “My boyfriend (whom I live with, and share a life with and may bills with and love deeply – like real grown up love etc etc etc.)” but unfortunately there are no brackets when speaking and when you add all that in every time you say boyfriend, it gets a bit long winded and crazy sounding.
The truth is, I don’t know if that’s really other people’s perceptions of the term boyfriend or if it’s just my fear that people won’t respect my relationship because I’m not engaged or married. Maybe that’s all in my head. I don’t know, maybe it’s my issue but I know I find myself eagerly anticipating getting engaged just so it’s easier to relay the seriousness of my relationship to people, with just a word. I have been known to say more than once, “sometimes I just want to get engaged for other people.” I’m happy the way things are. I trust him, he loves me, we’re happy. The engagement and the wedding and all the rest of it will come when it does. And you know what? He does have commitment issues and maybe that’s why I’m the one for him, because I allow him the time to work through his issues without bailing on him because he isn’t ready yet. We talk about getting married, what being married will be like, because you know what he has concerns, and I respect that because he wants to do it right when we get married, for the right reasons, and he doesn’t want to jump into something, just because everyone thinks we should get married because we’ve been together for three years and he’s over 30 and it’s TIME. And I know it’s not because he loves me, it’s because he does and he wants to make sure we’re ready, that we’ve thought it through. The truth is the idea of getting married is scarier for him than me and I respect that and so we talk about it all the time and when he’s ready we’ll get engaged and then we’ll get married and we’ll be happy. But you know what we’re happy right now and I am so dammed tired of having to be embarrassed every time someone says, “I can feel it, the ring is coming soon! “And I say, “Actually it’s not, because we talk about it all the time and he’s not ready yet.” And then they look at me with that sad face that says “oh how sad and pathetic that she stays with him even though she knows he doesn’t want to marry her”
End rant.
I feel I might have lost my way in there somewhere, but I trust you all will know how I feel and what I’m getting at.
December 6, 2010 7:05 am
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Yes, yes! I feel the same way about the term “boyfriend.” We’re really happy to be at this non-engaged status in our relationship, (as in, I don’t *want* to call him finace right now) but we’ve also been together for a long time, (7 year anniversary next month!) and we’ve been planning and living our life together for a long time now. I always just feel a little silly when I say “boyfriend.”
Mostly, I just refer to him by name. Sometimes I will say, My boyfriend, [name], and then mutter something about hating that term. Or I refer to him as my partner. I tend to you use that in more formal situations (like when I had to call his insurance company for him).
December 6, 2010 7:16 am
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I’m the same way. We don’t live together right now, so using “partner” in conversation feels a little funny, but I do use it on official forms. When I was making him my beneficiary on one of my accounts, my financial adviser actually called and asked, “Are you engaged? We usually only write partner if someone is living together.” I was really humiliated, and I guess it still stings, but we don’t need her validation. (Hers, or any one else at the bank’s, who all have no problem telling me I shouldn’t list him as a beneficiary unless we’re married. Or the tattoo parlor. …Or any of those other strangers who don’t seem to think you can be committed without being married, damn it! In my experience, it’s been strangers, not friends/family, who have put the most pressure on it.)
In conversation, I usually just say “Roger” and hope whoever I’m talking to catches on quickly. Mostly they do. Phew!
December 6, 2010 7:50 am
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I used the word partner for a while pre-engagement. I would have used it if we were not planning to get engaged too….
December 6, 2010 9:43 am
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We use partner, but we’ve been experimenting lately with “my person” or “my [insert name here].” As in, “this is my person, Liz” or “this is my Cristina.”
I don’t know if it’s any more clear, but it’s fun! :)
December 6, 2010 11:54 am
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“Every time I say boyfriend I want to say “My boyfriend (whom I live with, and share a life with and may bills with and love deeply – like real grown up love etc etc etc.)” but unfortunately there are no brackets when speaking and when you add all that in every time you say boyfriend, it gets a bit long winded and crazy sounding. ”
Hahaha, yesss. I totally ranted about this up above before reading this. It is. So. True.
December 6, 2010 2:22 pm
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Yes Yes! Yes this so much! This became so frustrating! When meeting new people, I didn’t know how to introduce him without qualifying it when I called him my boyfriend. I tried partner, but I dunno, it felt a little too formal to me. At the same time, using boyfriend, it felt like people didn’t take the depth of our commitment seriously. Man, the worst was when we were buying a house together – “This-is-my-boyfriend-but-really-I swear-it’s-okay-we’ve-been-together-10-years-DON’T-JUDGE-MEEEEE!!!!”
As long as it wasn’t a formal situation, I just started calling him my boy. I have a problem with formal names I admit. It’s taken me all 8 months of our engagement thus far to finally start not feeling weird about the word “fiance” (though it was definitely way more convenient when talking to strangers). I don’t know what I’m going to do when I have to start calling him my husband!
I think I just resent that I have to even pick a word to call him that implies a certain amount of validity of our relationship to other people. I’m all, it’s none of your business stranger how we define our relationship!
December 6, 2010 9:33 pm
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I hate the term boyfriend, too! Especially since it’s the same term that my high schoolers (I’m a teacher) use for their relationships, which are much different from my own (together almost 5 years, living together for 3.5). And as a teacher, I have this weird, extra layer where I feel like it’s somehow not professional to tell a totally harmless story involving him because saying “My boyfriend…” sounds too young and personal, whereas teachers tell stories about their “husband” or “wife” often and no one thinks anything. I know I’m totally just being awkwardly paranoid about it…but yea. Just wanted to shout out my agreement with that.
November 20, 2012 7:30 pm
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Haha BRILLIANT blog Sarah! My fiance recently blogged on the subject of his pre-engagement rage…our engagement was nine yrs in the making! As if we’d never discussed it, yet all I ever got was “hang in there’s” from those who don’t seem too happy in their own marriages. Well, we’ve managed nine yrs of total bliss and I’m so happy we waited…I’m now set to marry my best friend and soul mate in September!
December 6, 2010 7:07 am
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Thanks, Sarah, for a great post! Adding to what Ellie said above about people who aren’t necessarily happy to not be engaged: DON’T assume that just because my boyfriend and I have been together for 8 years and have a great relationship that we’re going to get committed/married. We started dating pretty young and have some lifetime-compatibility issues we’re still working out. Since we really (really!) want it to work but have to try to be careful and honest about what’s best for both of us, it’s kind of painful when people just assume we’re getting married someday.
December 6, 2010 7:08 am
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exactly to it not being a problem that needs a solution! I know the view that you must get married definitely exists and there is pressure, but I’m so thankful to have somehow grow into a person who sees my friends in long-term relationships as happy people not “waiting around for a ring”
December 6, 2010 7:17 am
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I think that it makes people uncomfortable that my boyfriend and I are in a committed relationship doing the things that married people do traditionally, but without the title. Things like, forming a household, combining finances, buying a condo and adopting a dog. This behavior does not fit into most people’s clearly defined expectations for how un-engaged couples act, and I think it makes them uncomfortable when they can’t automatically figure out what exactly we are.
I can say, however, that over time the questioning looks and nudges at family gatherings or when friends get engaged have become less and less frequent. To me, there is no coincidence in that as I have transitioned further into adulthood over the past three years since graduating college (we’ve been dating for five years), that my community has come to accept that my boyfriend and I are in a legitimate relationship, whether or not I have a ring on my finger. I think that initially many of the questions arose out of the fact that in their eyes I was in transition from Silly College Kid to Responsible Adult (still haven’t made it yet!) and not ready to make serious choices about my relationship without the security of an engagement ring. This is especially true in the case of my extended family. Over time and based on our life choices (owning a home together, etc.) it seems to me that my family and friends have come to view me and my boyfriend as adults, capable of making adult-decisions and they are beginning to realize that choosing to not get married right away is a decision that we have both made together.
December 6, 2010 7:21 am
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I agree with you on the “wearing them down” bit.
I’ve been with my partner (hi, I hate the term “boyfriend” too) for almost eight years. We pay bills together, share bank and investment accounts, and maintain a household that is our own. We are a family. We are as committed as can be – and we regularly, gleefully have the conversation about how both of us are In This Until We Are Dead, the end.
It’s frustrating that the society around us (our families, and the larger culture) don’t think we could possibly *really mean it*, because we haven’t had a proposal, ring, or big party. Meanwhile, if we had known each other a week and gotten hitched, our families might raise their eyebrows, but they would support and encourage us as a lifelong couple. It sucks. It sucks, it sucks, and it’s made me cry on more than one occasion – it feels as if this whole amazing, healthy, strong relationship that we’ve built (and that we work to grow every day) doesn’t mean squat, because I don’t want to have a Wedding.
But after years (and years) of steady commitment and mutual respect, I think we’re wearing the communities around us down. Or maybe I’m just caring less and less what other people think. Yeah, I think maybe that’s it. :)
December 6, 2010 10:22 am
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Thank you so much for this post! Our dating relationship — and even our engagement — were so full of anxiety for me (unrelated to pining for a ring, totally related to doubts about our relationship), but our 1.5 years of marriage since have been a totally different story. Every doubt and anxiety vanished at the altar, somehow. All that to say that I’ve likely been insensitive to my pre-engaged friends because I’m wishing they can be just as happy as I am. But (duh) their relationship is NOT my relationship and they probably don’t need a formal ceremony to give them security like I did. My insensitivity has come from a place of love, but that doesn’t make it OK!
December 6, 2010 7:22 am
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Thanks, this is wonderful!
I just want to add: being pre-engaged is really not about waiting for my partner and I. (I fall into the category of pre-engaged, but *personally* that term makes me a little uncomfortable.) I don’t want to be engaged right now because I really love this moment in our relationship, where we are so in love and have been living/planning our lives together for a long time, and all that love and all those plans are entirely private! Once you are engaged, you’re making a public announcement about your relationship. I’m too busy reveling in our secret awesomeness to share that just yet.
Also, reading this has reminded me of how wonderful my family and my BF’s family are! We’ve been together for a long time (our 7 year anniversary is next month!) and this is our fourth year living together. Honestly, between both of our huge families, no one ever says a damn thing. They don’t pressure us, or make snide comments at his expense, or give me sympathetic, condescending looks. They all recognize how happy we are, and respect that we’re already planning our lives together and supporting each other. It’s pretty awesome that, universally, we’re respected by our families and friends in this way, because I know that’s not something everyone experiences.
December 6, 2010 7:27 am
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I just remembered the one time anyone asked about our marriage plans, and it’s actually a really cute story.
I had taken my grandmother out to a play (at our alma mater) and we were driving home when she asked if my boyfriend and I are going to get married. I thought about it for a minute, and then I realized: she’s older now, and has been pretty sick. She’s asking this question because she loves me and wants me to have a happy future, you know?
So I smiled, and I said, “Yes, Nana, we are planning to get married some day.” And her face lit up and she said, “So you love him then?”
It was such a sweet response; she really was so happy to know we are in love!
December 6, 2010 7:35 am
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So jealous of you Sarah!
I wish I could be as calm as you are! I do love my special friend so much, and I don’t want anyone else. (I also agree that the term boyfriend is not quite good enough.)
I’m just one of those people who needs the agreement and action of it. Actions speak louder than words to me. And heck, his words are, “we’re not engaged yet, I have to propose when I can buy a ring.”
In addition to my jealousy, I’m also thankful for your post! This will help me talk to him more about what I’m thinking and feeling, and hopefully get him to open up a bit more.
December 6, 2010 7:34 am
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Great post, great comments. I’m in that pre-engaged space and we were just discussing this morning whether or not we should include the notification of our date in our holiday cards (sorry if this is a manners violation!), and came to the conclusion that it would require much more explanation since there hasn’t technically been a “proposal”. It would just be easier to call everyone to let them know (I’m Ms Frugal and don’t want to send Save-the-Dates and invites) since there will be some anti-WIC explanations of why we’re doing it our way involved.
I absolutely encourage the communication between the two of you, and then with other people who can be trusted to not twist it and shred you with that information. I know that we’re very happy in our pre-engaged space with our parents knowing what’s up and us knowing what’s up. Much more happy than some friends of mine who just keep going around complaining that he hasn’t asked yet and him feeling stressed to make it perfect so waiting forever.
December 6, 2010 7:34 am
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Haha, we definitely did digital save-the-date postcards and the actual paper invites before the proposal and not a single person questioned us about receiving the save-the-dates (or invites) before a proposal. I guess they figured if we had a date and a location, we were serious enough to announce it. :) Good luck with whatever you decide!
December 6, 2010 10:38 am
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Omg, I so love this statement “There aren’t a finite amount of engagements and this girl hasn’t “stolen” mine from me.” F-ing hilarious.
And I’ve found that I’m guilty of doing some of this. Or for making excuses for my un-engaged friends (who everyone knows will get married some day) to others.
Bad me. Bad!
December 6, 2010 7:36 am
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Btw, I’ve never meant anything I’ve said to others about possible pending engagements to be mean or derisive of their choices. I’ve meant it as encouragement (sometimes teasing), that I’m glad they’re happy together.
The instances I can think of, its always been couples that I knew would & should end up married, that were already very committed, and quite frankly it was (or is) just a matter of time until it happens. (Granted, I think most of my friends will go the traditional marriage route, rather than a more informal [really I mean less legally binding] route.)
I guess part of my asking is selfish – because I want them to get engaged so we then have a “reason” to celebrate that they’ve found each other and are so happy. Which sounds silly when I type it – because why can’t we celebrate that without an engagement? I guess I just don’t know how.
The other part of my asking is that, really, I’m just a nosy bitch.
But Sarah, thank you for writing this.
I’ve never thought that I might be making my friends feel uncomfortable when really I just want to tell them that I’m happy for them.
I’ll start trying to say that more directly, instead of implying that marriage/engagement = happiness & joy & rainbows & kittens (and indirectly, and unintentionally, implying that not being married or engaged = sadness & gloom & a lack of love.)
December 6, 2010 8:19 am
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There’s a big difference in waiting to get engaged because you’re both trying to get your lives on track versus not being able to talk about the future.
People recognize this difference, but they don’t necessarily know which one applies to you. I don’t know why anyone would offer advice unasked unless they are your parents.
I think if a couple talks easily about marriage, then there’s nothing to worry about. But if one of you has to walk on eggshells about the subject, that’s not a good sign.
December 6, 2010 7:46 am
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Ladies who are unhappy waiting, listen to these wise words. This may have the kernal of truth you’re looking for. If you’re walking on eggshells with your partner, ask yourself (and them) why that is.
December 6, 2010 9:46 am
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This is such a great point! I was “walking on eggshells” with my fiance about 2 years before we got engaged–I thought I was ready, he knew he wasn’t. After a while I realized I wasn’t really ready either, and I would get pretty uncomfortable when other people kept asking when we were going to “get engaged already.” I knew we were both ready when we were both easily talking about getting married/the future. But that took quite a while, and the time it took was really good for both of us.
December 6, 2010 1:20 pm
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Wow. This is an amazing post and I wish I had had this 3 months ago to ease my mind about my own situation. I am 27 and have been in my relationship for a little under 7 years. I have lived with my fiance for 4 years and until this past year, neither of us were honestly ready to take the plunge. The reason we weren’t ready had nothing to do with the fact that either of us had any doubts or financial hardships. It had to do with the fact that we were enjoying that part of our lives together. The part where we knew that eventually we would be married but we knew that we would be marrried for a very huge part of our lives and we wanted to stretch out our pre-married lives as long as possible.
That said, once we eventually decided that the time was right to get engaged, he didn’t officially popthequestion for about 5 months. And that in between period was total agony. It was agony because I wanted to scream it from the roof tops…but also wanted him to feel like he could ask me at his leisure. Sooo, inevitably after a few glasses of vino with friends, I would slip and wink and hint to people that we were “close ifyouknowwhatImean.”
This period that I couldn’t talk to close friends and family about it was agony. I felt the same way you do…it was a mutual decision, but I couldn’t talk about it because I didn’t want people to assume that I was “pressuring” him. As a woman, you get weird responses if you bring up anything wedding related before you are proposed to. This is a great reminder of how to relate to my friends who are in the same situation…THANK YOU
December 6, 2010 7:49 am
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Which only makes me wonder, now, why is it the guy who does the asking? I get the historical precedent, sort of, but why does it linger? Why do the gender roles and ritual begin at the ask? Don’t get me wrong. I’ve waited. Somehow it seemed that without the moment of “being asked” I had no one to pay my bride price.
December 7, 2010 6:28 am
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And to speculate on my own question, if we assume biological imperatives, perhaps we trust women’s biology to compel her to care for her children and therefore family, but need an extra step of guarantee for men. If not biology, do we have to worry about the dreaded patriarchy? Oh god I hope not.
December 7, 2010 6:34 am
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I never waited or worried. It was a mutual decision that came out of a casual conversation while watching TV one night.
Even though the marriage ended in divorce, I still like the way the decision happened. It was easy and natural.
December 7, 2010 6:58 am
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YES!
“The reason we weren’t ready had nothing to do with the fact that either of us had any doubts or financial hardships. It had to do with the fact that we were enjoying that part of our lives together. The part where we knew that eventually we would be married but we knew that we would be marrried for a very huge part of our lives and we wanted to stretch out our pre-married lives as long as possible.”
This is the first time I’ve heard someone else put it the way I do (and I generally get glazed over looks in response…)
We’re only 23, together for 6 years, living together for 4 and have definitely made that commitment that we want this forever. 6 years has been a long time, and it has also gone by in a flash. Forever is a long time, and this part is fun just the way it is. I know that we’ll *feel* it when we’re ready to make it official for our loved ones.
In the meantime, we’ll keep having those conversations (often nudged by swirling thoughts after reading so many other conversations on APW) and enjoying doing things our way. Luckily, only a few comments here and there about rings so far…
December 7, 2010 7:17 pm
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AMEN! So well said, and I could relate to every single word.
December 6, 2010 7:56 am
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Such a great post! It immediately brought me back to the year before my now-husband and I got engaged and everyone – especially my mom – was saying “When are you getting married?” “Oh, you must be bummed he didn’t propose at Christmas/New Year’s/Valentine’s.” “What is he waiting for” blah blah blah… etc. Nobody believed me when I said I was happy with the status quo and that we weren’t in a rush, and yes it was coming, but we were just enjoying living in sin. ;-)
It is SO bizarre the way some people pity girls in long term relationships who aren’t yet engaged. My mother truly believed I must have been crying my eyes out every night because he hadn’t proposed yet. I wasn’t.
Whether you’re “pre-engaged” and okay with it or unhappy with the situation – nobody should be anything but supportive. If you are unhappy with the situation, I think that’s okay… it shouldn’t make you an object of pity… people should just be there for you without making you feel like crap about it.
December 6, 2010 7:58 am
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One of my best girlfriends and her (now) husband had the BEST (read: funniest) solution for dealing with the non-stop questions that pre-engaged couples face: Anytime someone asked her when they were going to get married, she’d respond with “when I get knocked up.” When someone asked him the same question, he’d say “I dunno, maybe when I meet the right girl.”
I love these responses because they lob the big, fat, uncomfortable ball right back into asker’s court. What better way to answer an inappropriate question than with an inappropriate response?
December 6, 2010 8:09 am
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My older brother got married this summer, and as the next in line, with the longest relationship of any of my siblings, my beau and I prepared for the inevitable “so you’re next! when are you getting married?” questions with several rehearsed responses:
1. “We’re thinking maybe 12/21/2012… so whether it ends up an Armageddon or we get married, our world will end either way”
2. “Allison [my 17 year old sister] and I are planning a double wedding. So maybe in 2020 or so.”
December 6, 2010 8:26 am
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Yeah, we have a long-running joke with some members of his family about 12/25/2025. We’re actually making a Christmas ornament for his cousin, that’s a “save the date” on the inside for them. But that’s because they are awesome and hysterical.
December 6, 2010 8:40 am
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It becomes much less annoying when you fight back with humor – and it’s great to see some people’s reactions ;-)
December 6, 2010 9:38 am
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ahahahaha. I love that!
December 6, 2010 8:29 am
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And all this time, I thought the word “pre-engaged” was invented by jewelers to sell “pre-engagement rings”. Go figure.
First of all, with weddings on the decline for the last couple of decades, one might presume that a cohabitating couple might opt NEVER to marry, so assuming that there is a “pre” anything is quite presumptuous. Not every couple chooses to marry.
And second of all. How rude! Why do people think it is their God-given right to ask anyone the details of their personal life? The next thing, of course, that the poor couple will have to put up with is “when are you going to have kids?”. Enough already. I think any question of when you are to be engaged should be responded with, “Why on earth would you ask me such a thing?”
Which sounds way better than “bugger off”!
December 6, 2010 8:09 am
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I saw a note, here or elsewhere, about Miss Manner’s response to people being intrusive: “My, what a personal question! You must be so embarrassed that it just slipped out.”
:D
LOVE that. ;p
January 13, 2011 2:32 pm
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Btw, with my then-fiancee (now-husband), once we’d talked about it and decided that we were going to get engaged & married, but before he ACTUALLY proposed, I just told people we were “officially” not engaged (emphasis on officially. or maybe it was technically. whatever, close enough.). Which confused some people, especially friends of friends that didn’t know us well – so we had to explain that we’d already decided, we were already making the actual wedding plans, we already had the ring, he just hadn’t OFFICIALLY asked me yet. (Granted, this was only 3-4 weeks worth of time, so it wasn’t so bad.)
Once we were engaged, people seemed to find it odd that I wasn’t super stressed about the idea of actually getting married and whatnot.
I distinctly remember saying to my fiancee and others “What? We’ve already decided we’re getting married. We’ve already promised each other that we will spend our lives together. We’re basically already married (at least in our level of commitment).”
Which seemed odd to most people, but to me it made perfect sense. We had already promised. We just hadn’t gone through all the ceremony and hoopla that we both expected of a wedding.
December 6, 2010 8:11 am
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I wish I had been this cool in my preengagement. I very much wanted to get over the waiting for it to happen. I romanticized being engaged and getting married without realizing it. When it was real it was REAL and I wasn’t as prepared for everything as I thought I was
December 6, 2010 8:13 am
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My fiance and I had a different kind of pre-engagement. He told me he was going to propose, took me ring shopping…then waited 3 months to actually propose. I had told my parents and a few friends about the ring shopping, then when he didn’t ask me right away they all thought he got cold feet and decided not to ask me after all. During that 3 months I began the wedding planning process because I knew we would have a short engagement (7 months) so I wanted to have as much of the planning process done as I could before he popped the question. My friends that knew I was planning the wedding and I felt like they thought I was some crazy woman who plans her wedding to a guy after the 1st date!
December 6, 2010 8:17 am
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my mom called me about 3 days after my now husband asked my dad for his blessing. (My husband was trying to keep it as a surprise and my parents kind of let the cat out of the bag by calling me RIGHT AFTER.)
She asked me “how I felt about it.” Um, really? No excitement? No happiness? When I told her he hadn’t proposed to ME yet she simply said, “oh. I kind of just figured since he asked us you just were.” (And then she said something about having to go run errands or something.)
Even if that was the case, and we just “were”… the fact she waited 3 days to say anything to me kind of hurt. Not to mention that I personally feel the conversation should have started with a “congratulations!”
Sadly though, sometimes people just don’t realize how hurtful what they say (or don’t say) actually can be. And worse, how long it can linger in your memory. I get asked all the time when we’re having kids, and after saying we aren’t, I always receive comments like “well you’ll change your mind.” It’s so rude and almost a direct slap in the face. To me it’s saying one day you’ll realize you are wrong, your decision/thoughts are invalid, and come around.
It used to catch me off guard, but now when they say that I simply joke and say “I guess I could change my mind about being married to my husband too.” Normally shows them that this isn’t just a split second thought. If nothing else, it shuts them up.
Anyhow… great post! It takes a lot of courage to just live and make your own path to happiness and a lot of people will question, challenge, or pity you simply because you’re doing things differently than they did. Good luck!!
December 6, 2010 8:18 am
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My parents did a similar thing. Both asking if this is what I wanted.
Once I said it was, then they of course said they were happy for me/us.
But that their first reaction wasn’t “OMG YAY!” hurt me too, briefly.
Then I remembered that these are my parents. My whole life they’ve been trying to keep me safe and make sure I’m happy. So of course their first response was to check and make sure this is really what I want – they just want to make sure I’d thought about it and was sure.
December 6, 2010 8:23 am
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My mom’s first reaction was of uncertainty. We went to tell them together, stood there with our arms around each other, and I said “Jon asked me to marry him.” She gave me a blank stare. “And, um, I said yes?” Another blank stare. “So, we’re engaged!”
Cue the over-the-top (read: highly fake, but at least she was trying) excitement. My dad, after hugs and congrats asked “Are you happy?” Totally him, and totally not “are you sure?” But the reactions still stung a bit.
Then again, I suppose it could be worse. HIS parents’ first reaction was to tell us we were children and we would most certainly NOT be getting married. (For the record, I’m 27.)
Really, you just can’t win.
December 6, 2010 9:47 am
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oh my god. did your/his parents come around?
(p.s. i’m wearing my mom’s dress for my wedding next summer…i tried it on with her over thanksgiving. my dad looked unsure for a second, then laughed and said, “it looks pretty. it’d look prettier in four or five years, but there you go.” and walked away. !!! i think the urge to protect and hold on can be very strong.)
December 6, 2010 11:19 am
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Oh, they did. Eventually. =)
My dad’s response was typical him. He was nothing but happy for us, but that’s his way. My mom took a little longer to really be genuinely happy (though she really tried to be earlier) … I’m the first child in the family (cousins included) to be married … so it was tough for her to realize that I wasn’t just a big kid. (Moving out 8 years earlier hadn’t done that for her, apparently).
His parents took a longer … and it was a constant struggle. His mom came around about a week before the wedding. His dad? Two weeks ago, when we saw them for Thanksgiving. Months AFTER the wedding. He’s still a little uncomfortable with the entire thing (Jon’s an only child), but at least he’s not grimacing anytime someone says the words “married” or “wife.”
But hey, at least they’re getting there! I expect it will continue to improve.
Your dad’s comment made me laugh … it SO much sounds like something my grandfather would say, so I can just hear it. How exciting to be wearing your mom’s dress! I wanted to wear my mom’s (and it fit perfectly … for the first time in my life … how often does THAT happen?!) but when we unpacked it we discovered it had been improperly preserved … and it would have had to be completely remade. Oh well! I’m so excited for you!
December 6, 2010 11:41 am
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That’s interesting because the biggest hurt for me during my engagement was that no one, no one, asked me if this was what I really wanted. Everyone said congratulations but what I really wanted was someone willing to have a serious conversation and wanting to hear what my feeling were. I felt kind of isolated by all the “yay” “he’s awesome” as if I didn’t have the option of having complicated feelings that were worth discussion.
December 6, 2010 9:00 am
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I guess you can’t really expect people to know what’s going on in your heart. We’re all majorly disconnected from everyone. One of the pieces of life is making connections with people so you can understand each other but ultimately no one will ever truly understand others like they understand themselves.
December 23, 2010 11:19 am
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