My boyfriend and I have known each other for over 15 years, been close friends for over 9 and have been dating exclusively for almost 4 years. We are both 28-years-old. We talk about marriage. We talk about the things we’d like to include in our hypothetical wedding. And yet, we’re not “officially” engaged. He has told me that he feels like he needs to have a better job before we get married, and he has said that it is very important to him to be the one who proposes. He says he has a plan, but won’t elaborate past that. He tends to get a long-suffering look on his face when I mention it.
I have told him that I feel a lot of sadness over not being engaged yet and that the longer I wait, the harder it is for me to hang out in my own personal limbo without losing my sh*t. I have told him that I don’t think we should wait, since I want to help support him as he pursues his dreams, not wait in the wings for them to come true. I think he feels that he should have all his ducks in a row before we get hitched. I disagree. I think getting married means that I can come with him while he goes after his education and dream career. I think we can line our ducks up together, and it’ll be way easier with two people. ‘Cause, you know, ducks are wily.
So I’m really torn. I don’t want to pressure him, but I feel like a bit of an idiot just waiting around at this point. What am I supposed to do now? I feel so frustrated and lost, and as someone who has struggled with anxiety and depression my whole life, this feels like the ultimate gauntlet. I try to focus on the fact that our relationship is otherwise fantastic, but it’s getting more and more difficult to do that. I just don’t understand why someone who clearly loves and admires me, who tells me daily that I am amazing, who treats me as his partner and equal and with whom I have amazing chemistry would still be waiting to propose. Most of the time I am absolutely sure that he is the man I will marry. Other times, I wonder if I’ll still be waiting next year and the year after that and on and on until it destroys us. I also feel a little left behind by our friends, who are mostly married with kids now or are planning weddings. Will I be 30, still just plodding along with my boyfriend while everyone I know is raising babies? I don’t think I can live with that.
—L.
Dear L,
Well, my dear, ducks are wily. I don’t think I’ve ever heard it put better than that. So, knowing that you’re wise, let’s dive into this issue. It seems to me there are several things going on here, so let’s parse this out.
Ducks Are, In Fact, Wily
Lesson number one: your partner doesn’t feel ready to get hitched. He thinks he needs to get his ducks in a row; you think you can get your ducks in a row when you\’re married. And both of you are right. Last year, someone wrote to me saying that she was ready to get married, but she didn’t have the money. And I told her F*ck The Economy (Get Married Now). Because, when you’re ready to get married, you shouldn’t let things like not having a swimming pool full of money hold you back.
But here, I think the issues are a little different. It sounds like your partner genuinely does not feel ready to get married. And that’s fair. I’d also argue that there does not have to be a rush. David and I have a timeline spookily like yours. We’d known each other for nine years before we got together, and were in a serious relationship for five years before we got hitched. And for a long time we just didn’t feel ready to get married. We knew we wanted to get married to each other at some point, but we wanted to feel like we had our lives sorted out a bit more first. We wanted to feel like we were heading towards careers; we wanted financial stability. While we didn’t want all our ducks in a line, we wanted them to at least be toddling towards the place where they might consider lining up, and they were not ready to do that yet, adorable wee duckies that they were.
So it’s fair that your partner isn’t quite ready to get hitched. And while I’d like to tell you F*ck The Ducks (Get Married Now), sometimes you have to wait on your partner a bit. But what’s not fair is his lack of communication around the issue. “I have a plan,” sounds great, right till the point that your partner walks out on you because she’s sick of waiting (ducks are wily indeed). So that brings me to…
What Partnership Means
Marriage is a partnership of equals. It’s forming a team and making sure things work for both members of the team. And right now, your boyfriend has bought in to the cultural narrative that it’s the man who decides when you get hitched, and he’s keeping you in the dark. It’s the keeping you in the dark that’s not working. And it’s up to you to tell him that.
Tell him you\’re not willing to wait without information anymore. Tell him that if he has a plan, he needs to talk about it with you because his plan involves your life, too. Tell him that you’re willing to wait if you know why you’re waiting, what he needs to think over, and where you’re generally heading. Tell him you understand if he doesn’t have firm answers yet, but that you need to start the conversation. Tell him that no matter what the cultural dialogue says about engagements, the rest of your life cannot be a secret from you and that decisions have to be made as a team.
And then tell him that ducks are wily, and you want to be there for him no matter what happens. Tell him that the fact that you feel that way is what makes you know that you want to marry him.
And then after you’ve had a long talk, realize you might need to wait a little longer. And here is one last secret: 28 is young. Heck, 30 is young. Enjoy where you are right now because your relationship is wonderful, things are good, and you won’t pass this way again. Oh, and read this post on the pre-engaged state (now).
Good luck (and keep us posted).
Yours in Duckies,
Meg
Photo by Leah and Mark, APW Sponsors
Aside from anything else, Meg, this was beautifully written.
My heart goes out to you, L – I have felt that frustration of knowing but not knowing, waiting but finding it hard to wait in the dark. I have nothing to add to Meg’s eloquent advice – wishing you strength and courage for the conversation you know you need to have. And yes, do keep us posted.
Yours in Duckies (I am now going to sign off every communication in this fashion),
Kirsty xx
July 21, 2011 4:46 am
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Yes, beautifully written!
July 21, 2011 7:24 am
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Was going to say, this is possibly my favorite piece of your writing I’ve seen yet (yet, I say, because I heard a rumor there’s a book that will be floating around soon?).
July 21, 2011 2:53 pm
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Thanks! Sorry I’m so late to the comments party, but we’re in San Diego for Comic Con and it is CRAZY.
Meg, this was exactly what I needed to hear, Thank you so much for the advice, and for not thinking my duck analogy is too nerdy! ::Big deep breath:: Now to wait for the end of the ‘Con and start a conversation with my boy.
– L.
July 22, 2011 12:19 am
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Babe. I have gone through almost the EXACT same scenario as you. And unfortunately have not been as wise. We have been together ten years (!!!) and I have yelled, cajoled, screamed, plotted….and finally ended up saying, “I want to get married. You don’t want to get married. That’s okay; but just know that someday I won’t be able to do this anymore.” I mean, we live together and own a house and two cars and a beagle! Once you are honest without being scary or judgey (and it sounds like you are really good at calmly laying out the facts), things go a lot better. If you want some extra support you can e-mail me at jennieboo33 (at) att (dot) net and I will be an understanding ear. Good luck! I know you’ll be great at whatever you say!
July 22, 2011 11:19 am
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Wow, this really reminded me of our pre-engaged state, specially at a certain time that I burst out crying (not proud of this) because though we had talked about getting married, and we knew we were gonna, he wouldn’t ask and how for me it was so important I was going crazy. In the end when he finally proposed he did surprise me. One of his arguments was that I should have a job first (at the time I had just finished my studies), so that I would be able to take care of myself (which I agree as well, but situation is not so easy where I am). What resonated the most was: “I think getting married means that I can come with him while he goes after his education and dream career. I think we can line our ducks up together, and it’ll be way easier with two people” .
So L, be patient, it will come, and do talk to him tell him why this is important for you, that you will be there supporting him and that this is what marriage is all about. And enjoy the moments that you have, as hard as it is, don’t be tricked with what society expects from you, just do whatever is best for both of you.
July 21, 2011 4:51 am
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Oh wow, this question sounds like it could have been written by me any time in the last year. Both the emotional rollercoaster experienced by L, and the explanations given by her boyfriend (he has a plan, he wants to marry her, but he wants to get his ducks in a row and find a better job) describe my partner to a T.
After a year of inner turmoil and struggling with the internal debate of “am I pressuring him, or having a rational conversation about our shared future?” (hint, it was the latter – if you ignore the one or two moments of weakness involving tears and general emotional meltdown…) – I finally started to make peace with the fact that my partner simply wasn’t ready to get married until he found a job he was happier with (I cursed the economy under my breath quite a lot through this phase…). Then, 2 weeks ago, he caught me off guard with a proposal.
Now, I don’t mean this in an ‘oh don’t worry honey, he’ll propose soon! (because obviously everyone’s life follows the exact same pattern as mine… right) kind of way, but rather as a way of saying I think Meg’s advice is bang on. You can’t force someone to be ready for marriage, and if getting all of his ducks in a row is something that’s really important to him before proposing, there’s probably not a whole lot you can do to change that. He’ll be ready when he’s ready, and the timing of that may end up surprising you, or it may be exactly what you expected. What you can do is open the floor to conversations about your future. In the 21st century, you have a right to be an active participant in decisions that impact your life, and it’s worth sitting down with your partner and discussing that with him (and no, that’s not pressure). Sharing a clear vision of your expectations for your future will go a long way towards calming down those inner voices who start to panic and wonder if you’ll ever get engaged. With those inner voices tamed, it will be easier to enjoy this pre-engaged state and it will go a long way towards easing the stress and anxiety that can flare up in the face of the unknown.
July 21, 2011 4:56 am
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This kind fo happened to me. We both discussed marriage and the future before we got together (I was being organised) but then we hit a time where he had to find his feet. He said he wanted to get married, but only once his job/finances were okay.
And I freaked because ducks are wiley (love that phrase) and okay is not a very specific thing and I thought they might never be okay enough to get married.
But I then spoke to him calmly and said that I was ready, and I was willing to wait but I needed a ballpark on how long I would be waiting, on what “okay” looked like.
He told me at Christmas he would propose “next year” and he proposed in April. I was still surprised (genuinely) and it was still lovely, but though I felt like an idiot for getting him to give me a general timeline it helped a lot with the craziness and with the friends who really should have read the post on what to say to the pre-engaged (not that I told THEM that he was going to propose that year – that was not the point, it just meant I knew and found the fact that they pitied me a lot easier to handle)
July 21, 2011 5:01 am
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I’m so glad to hear from so many of you that I am not alone in this! It’s been rough, mostly because I feel like “everyone else” is getting married or already is. Thanks for sharing with me!
July 22, 2011 12:23 am
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Oh, timelines. They’re good, but they’re stressful! We agreed in December that it would be sometime this year, but this year is going fast. And I keep telling myself to relax, the money’s not there (oh debt you money pit..we’re crawling out) and while I’m ok with an engagement agreement he feels he *has* to have a ring (and won’t believe me when I say, “I don’t want a crazy proposal/ massive ring”). And I’m going home in November (to the other side of the world, where we agreed 4 yrs ago to have the maybe-someday wedding), and I just want to be able to look at and discuss things *with* him rather than it feeling like a dirty little secret. And maybe I’m dreading the conversations with people who, when I was last home 2 yrs ago, kept asking me when the engagement was happening. Le sigh.
/end rant? Thanks APW world, glad I got that off my chest. Not sure that’s the conversation he’ll want to have when he gets home, but sometime soon.
July 22, 2011 2:48 am
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Totally had this issue. What really helped me through was focusing on the Me in addition to the Us. When we talked about a future together, it was scary and a lot of pressure– he sweated profusely (no lie), i cried.
When i came to the table with a robust plan of “I want to work in this field, go to grad school online, graduate at some point, be an awesome scientist, take art lessons, buy a house, garden, maybe spawn children with someone at some point, and die when i’m 104″ my attitude totally changed. Okay, I got cocky. Dude, I’m awesome, and my life’s gonna be awesome, so he can either join in the party with all his hopes and dreams, or not.
July 21, 2011 5:12 am
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Wow, this was so what I needed to hear at exactly this time. Not about necessarily being ready to get married, but “focusing on the Me in addition to the Us.”
Thanks! :)
July 21, 2011 8:31 am
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Great response, Meg, lovely written. I was never in a long relationship (I was alone most of my life, until I met my husband, and 1 month into dating he proposed) so I haven’t been through what you, L, are going through, but I have a couple of friends that are going through that now. Most of their anxiety comes from not knowing whether their boyfriends actually want to get married (like in EVER) and, as they approach 30, they fret that they may be “wasting their time” (=their fertile years) with someone that may just not be the least interested in proposing. Their boyfriends, just like yours, get defensive with the topic and this, in turn, increases their anxiety.
But Meg is right: you cannot make someone ready for marriage, but you can request open, sincere, heartfelt communication about the topic. And 28 is very young. Trust me, I’m 35 ;)
Good luck!
July 21, 2011 5:23 am
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I felt exactly like you, L, for the last (long) bit of our pre-engaged state. I ended up getting to the point where I had to have some idea about the “plan” or we’d have to re-evaluate everything. I cried about it by myself, read posts online about (nothing as good as Meg’s advice – shocking), and talked to my friends (side note: bad idea…for some reason people always just say “break up then” when you hit a rough patch. So, on this issue – don’t talk to your friends, talk to your heart and talk to your partner, that’s it). In the end, I figured, if I can’t talk to him about this issue, then how will we be able to be married and make it through realllly rough issues that require conversation? So, I talked to him – and I was so nervous to do it. I was worried it would lead to our break up (which makes no sense looking back because, again, marriage will cause you to have much tougher conversations and so we should be able to get through that one….but I digress). I explained that I didn’t want to rush him but I did have a *very* loose life plan and was ready for marriage and wanted to know if there was something in our relationship that we could work on to make him feel ready for marriage too. It was a long and very honest conversation. And it was so necessary because it explained a lot. I feel like we came out of that conversation more in love with each other than when we went in.
Bottom line – Meg’s advice was dead on. Talk with him about it. It’s a bit nerve wracking to start the conversation but you are strong, your relationship sounds strong and I know there will be a happy ending. Good luck and keep us posted, L.
July 21, 2011 5:25 am
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Ditto the part about not talking to friends about it (or be really careful who you talk to about it). I made the mistake of mentioning to some “friends” about how I was about to embark on the pursuit of a Masters degree and was frustrated that I wasn’t engaged yet and expressed the fear of him waiting to propose until I was done with my degree.
No joke, they did the divide and conqur to us at another friends’ wedding. They cornered him and basically said “Poop or get off the pot” and they yanked me aside and told me that I shouldn’t be upset over not getting engaged because “soandso has been with whathisface for ten years and they aren’t engaged, so why are you mad?”. It was HORRIBLE.
July 21, 2011 9:43 am
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That’s awful! And besides, what do other relationships have to do with your relationship?
I do have to say though, “poop or get off the pot” is an awesome saying.
July 21, 2011 9:58 am
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I tried to keep it PG. :)
July 21, 2011 10:17 am
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Any tips for those of us in the “we need to have a conversation about this” stage on how to start such a conversation? I’ve never been a fan of the “we need to talk” line – but don’t know how else to bring up something this heavy. That’s not to say we haven’t had real talks, just none in quite a while – so I’m out of practice.
July 21, 2011 9:21 pm
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Hi Mai, I find what works is a pre arranged agreement to set aside time to talk. It feels weird at first but works really well. I might say to D, “have you got time tonight to sit down with me for a bit so we can work out our budget/vacation plans for the next little while/Christmas arrangements/etc?” Those are some good topics to instigate the process so that you’re learning to make plans together without the subject matter being too heavy. In good time, you can start to suggest a discussion about where you’re headed generally, and you may even reach a point where it’s easy to suggest taking time to talk vaguely about future wedding plans, raising kids, etc The process doesn’t work unless you genuinely allow your partner to come to the discussion when they are ready. Seriously. If tonight is no good and this month is no good, wait til there’s a good time for both of you. This is a long haul approach, but it’s really effective and puts you in a position to raise almost any taboo topic without being seen to apply the dreaded “pressure”…
July 22, 2011 6:39 am
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great tips. I struggle with making the leap from everyday/holiday plans to concrete heavy plans.
We both know where we’re headed (our wily ducks are all facing the same direction, with some distraction of “what’s that shiny thing over there?”) but firming up a plan of attack to get said wily ducks to all get into the pond and swim is where I struggle. He’s thought process is, “life will work itself out. we know we’re pointed in the same direction, so just let the ducks waddle towards the pond, they’ll all get in when they’re good and ready.” And I just want to sit down and ask each duck, “so, do you think you want to go swimming today/this week/year/decade?”
July 22, 2011 7:25 am
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LOVE this analogy.
August 4, 2011 11:31 am
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General Sidenote on waiting for the proposal: It also helps to discuss any fantasies or nightmares regarding proposals with your partner before it happens. This can prevent a multitude of dashed hopes or slight disappointments. Idea of being asked in a super public place freak you out or turn you on? She or he may not know that, even if you guys are soul mates. Or maybe being surprised and romanced is important to you… still a good idea to let the proposing partner know that.
I was always secretly a little embarrassed about fantasizing about a proposal. And I don’t remember if my partner asked me or if I volunteered the information, but I’m so glad we talked about it in a hypothetical fashion before the actual event. My partner ended up taking some of my musings on the subject very literally, which still makes me giggle a bit. So, being specific can help, too! I think most partners want to fufill your wildest dreams about being asked, but may still need a little help to know exactly what kind of dreams you’ve had about it.
Tangentially, I would echo the sentiment that many people I know do need a sort of timeline, or general idea that a proposal is coming, maybe even specifically WHEN it’s coming. There’s this whole surprise element to a proposal that, while, sweet and romantic, is not always practical. Especially if you are project-oriented and used to creating your own schedules.
July 21, 2011 5:28 am
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So true. I’m smiling while I write this because it reminded me of my husband’s proposal. I never wanted a public, hollywoodesque proposal, so my husband still jokes that, at the last minute, he had to cancel the Bulgarian dancers he had hired to appear right after me saying “yes”, and I still joke that he owes me those dancers ;)
July 21, 2011 12:11 pm
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I understand completely where you are, L. I’ve spent the last year and a half wrestling with this, and it wasn’t pretty. My boyfriend and I had reached a point where our ducks had started to line up, so I thought that the next step would be marriage, whereas he didn’t feel ready. We had a lot of tearful conversations about it, but ultimately what it came down to is that if this is truly a partnership, both partners have to be on the same page before taking the next step.
We’re still waiting, but I’m in a good place with it now, and really happy. I know that we’re building a life together and that he’s not NOT marrying me because he doesn’t love me (as much as the rom-com and diamond industries would like to tell us). We’re having fun, enjoying our relationship, and exploring the world together. We’ll tie the knot at some point when we’re BOTH ready and excited to take that leap, holding hands and laughing all the way.
July 21, 2011 5:29 am
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We went through this as well. I had a *really* hard time with the fact that a decision that impacted us both was something that only he had control over. We had many a talk that Meg suggests, mainly because I needed a lot of reassurance that we were on the same page. I got a lot crazier than I’d like to admit for a variety of valid reasons, and man, that was a hard summer to go through.
July 21, 2011 5:34 am
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I also thought it was ridiculous that a proposal seems to be a decision solely left up to a man. The idea that “suprise!” one day he decides he’s finally ready to marry you is completely ludicrous. So we talked about it, and decided that rather than “surprise, marry me!”, THEN premarital counseling, THEN a marriage, that we would instead start talking through all the tough questions now, then decide what a marriage might look like, then talk about getting married.
I stressed a lot about this earlier this year, but I think recently the idea of marriage became real to him, and it just feels different now. I think that as long as you can talk about your future honestly and enjoy the present, you’ll be fine. I was also very up front with him about the realities of wedding planning (time and money-wise) and the realities of child bearing (as far as women’s bodies go). These were apparently eye-opening conversations.
In addition to all that, I’ve been focusing on my own life more. I’ve been pursuing my hobbies and spending time with my friends, but I can’t devote as much time to a relationship that may or may not being going anywhere, and it’s actually relieved a lot of the stress for both of us.
Anyways, still waiting for the engagement, but I feel like when it comes we will both be ready because we’ve already talked through the stuff tough.
July 21, 2011 6:05 am
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Yes, it has really helped us to talk about our futures together instead of trying to force the marriage conversation. I’m still not sure what goes through his head sometimes when he thinks there’s a difference between being together forever and getting married, but he’s definitely in that “ducks in a row” school of thought, so I’m sure that has a lot to do with it.
For us, the power isn’t his because he’s “the man,” it’s because he’s the one who’s not ready. But talking about what we want from our lives, both together and as individuals, and knowing we have shared values and goals is a wonderful salve on my sometimes-aching heart for marriage.
July 21, 2011 8:01 am
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We wound up not having a proposal at all but a marriage conversation. Which is funny because we both thought we wanted a proposal but after a year and a half of discussing a marriage, our hypothetical wedding, getting a dog, buying a house, planning for the future, etc. the conversation just felt more right, to Forrest initially and as the days start to pass I’m liking it more and more as the days pass. It was quiet and thoughtful but really beautful.
July 21, 2011 9:24 am
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Aww, we also had a marriage conversation vs. a proposal. There was no big, dramatic surprise, just a quiet conversation in bed that ended with “so it’s settled, we’re getting married.” It was perfect for us.
July 21, 2011 9:42 am
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It was the same for us. We had been talking about what we didn’t want because I had been judged “not feminine”for not wanting a hollywoodesque proposal by some colleagues and we thought it was ridiculous. It was a quiet conversation and at the end he said “So, will you marry me? “and I said yes, 1 month after we met :)
July 21, 2011 12:21 pm
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My parents as well! When I asked my Mum how Dad proposed she said, what do you mean? That was a decision we talked about together, cause it’s a kind of a big deal, and we agreed and decided to get married. So we told everyone to meet us at the church!
So practical.
July 21, 2011 12:45 pm
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This is BRILLANT. Way to take your power back (because yes, we’ve all got power).
July 21, 2011 9:01 am
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Meaghan explained what I was thinking by the end of the post – you don’t have to be married to be his partner and helping/supporting him achieve his dreams. Marriage is certainly a full-commitment level of it all, but there’s no law (written or unspoken) that says you have to be married to be in a committed, supportive relationship. And it seems like having that great support before you’re even engaged is fodder to help him realize you’ll be there and supportive later, too. Otherwise you’re sort of holding a piece of yourself back, which seems like a bad framework to set up. Those things just get more challenging as time passes because you’ve set up patterns that can be hard to break.
All that “sageness” being out there, totally understand the frustrated waiting game. I worried about it and analyzed and tried to hold myself back and calm, but it took a lot of self-talk, “no, really, it’ll all work out. Quit stewing…” And while I knew it, I didn’t feel it very much.
July 21, 2011 5:50 am
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Oddly enough, it took my husband explaining this to me during our own “pre-engaged” state to make me at ease with a long-term pre-engagement.
Although in our situation, we ended up in a long-distance pre-engagement, which in my mind put anything serious on hold – until he proposed while we were long-distance.It wasn’t an orchestrated proposal, but my Thinker of a husband had thought long enough, and realized he couldn’t live without me anymore.
July 21, 2011 7:24 am
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Erm… do you mean Meg? (I think that’s the first time one of y’all has called me Meaghan, which is most definitely not my name!) Though three years is a good run of it ;)
July 21, 2011 9:02 am
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Or perhaps she is referring to the comment posted above by reader Meaghan?
July 21, 2011 9:59 am
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I think she maybe meant my comment way up there?
July 21, 2011 10:01 am
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Can I just add another “me-too!”? My fiance and I were living together with the understanding that marriage was the plan. He was having employment issues and didn’t feel like we were financially ready. He also didn’t see the point of marriage, since we were already functioning as a married, committed couple. I would bring this up every now and then, like you, and get very frustrated because everything else was good and right.
Then last year, after Thanksgiving, I came home and told him that I wanted to be married by the end of the next year. In my head, it wasn’t an ultimatum and it wasn’t a proposal. It was just me stating my position: We were struggling now, we were planning on struggling together in the future, and dammit, why couldn’t we struggle together and be married at the same time? He said yes, we picked out a ring the next day and told our families and friends, and I got him a nice watch since I was the one who “proposed.”
It’s nice that your boyfriend wants to make a big, romantic gesture, but if waiting is driving you crazy, you should talk to him like Meg said. Feeling like a chump who’s wasting time with a man who won’t commit isn’t romantic, and he needs to meet you halfway. Think of it as practice for more compromises to come!
July 21, 2011 5:59 am
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I totally agree with Meg’s advice! We sort of had the conversation that ended with a formal proposal and we’re getting married tomorrow. Eek. Why am I on APW? I have so much to do! But thank you ladies for all of your awesomeness and keeping this bride sane. See you on the flip side.
July 22, 2011 6:49 am
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CONGRATS AND HAVE A GREAT DAY!!!
July 22, 2011 1:06 pm
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Hey L. !
Let me start by saying that I really get where you’re coming from; like a few girls before me said, I could have asked (yelled, screamed, cried) the same question last year : why won’t you propose ???? So this is my experience with waiting for a proposal, even if of course I understand your situation is different because we’re all different people ^^. My fiancé and I had been together for 3 years and I was completely looking forward to marrying him (not just anyone – him), plus we had been talking about it for a while just like you, but still no proposal and it was slowly driving me crazy, like there had to be a deeper problem than just wanting to have a stable job situation first.
Then, in December, without me forcing the issue, he proposed. And I was over-the-moon happy. And then I FRRRRREACKED-OUT. Like, really. I know, logical, right ? I still loved him more than anything in the world (still do) and still wanted to spend my life with him (still do too), but suddenly all the stress and panic of planning a wedding and committing to someone “till death do us part” caught up with me. And thank God my fiancé was there, and ready for marriage and convinced we could do this together, so that he was able to comfort and reassure me. And later when it was time to start truly planning the wedding, thank God he had waited till we were stable financially to propose, so that eventhough we are not rich we can afford the ceremony we want without having to take a bunch of money from our parents who would have wanted to pay for the whole thing even if they clearly can not afford it.
I’m not saying anything 50′s-like such as “let your man take all decisions for you, you emotional female” but for me it got really easy to be swept away by the “why aren’t you getting married yet?” and “at our age, when people have been together for as long as we have, they get married. if we don’t then it means there’s something WRONG with us (me?)” and even “It’s the fourth wedding we’ve been to this summer, I want MY princess dress too”.
Of course I agree talking about issues is very important in a couple, but also maybe just like mine your partner only needs a long time to make up his mind but when he sets his mind to something there is no stopping him and you will be happy to have his rock-hard conviction that you’re doing the right thing later, when/if all the stress and family issues surrounding a wedding arise. Knowing he took his time (and therefore also forced me to take mine and not rush all excited into it) and really matured the idea of proposing makes me feel all calm and serene when thinking about the wedding and more importantly the marriage because I know this isn’t some spur-of-the-moment thing. It is a careful thought-out, life-changing decision that commits us to each other for life. And we looooove it :) :) :)
Hope this helped a little bit, and I wish you two all the love in the world !
July 21, 2011 6:02 am
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I think this is WAY more common than people imagine (judging by comments here and on the other post about pre-engagement). While we’re on a shorter timeframe than you, I’ve gone in and out of this state with the Boy. Rationally in my head, I know we’re not quite ready, and we have a few more things to sort out (although we’ve made it through some Very Bad Stuff and have long since worked out the big things in our relationship). Irrationally, the other part of me keeps reminding me of the fact that the Boy is moving (in about 2 weeks…) to the US for his PhD. We’re Canadian. While I can visit once in awhile, I can’t move there (nor can my daughter) until we’re married. That’s really pushed up the time-frame of “we ought to think about this more seriously” for me, because even the shortest PhD program is a long time to wait for someone to come back home. What had been most frustrating for me was that he simply would NOT discuss things. We have long agreed we want to marry each other, and we certainly already share a life and a family together, but for me, it was really upsetting that he really held all the cards in this situation – and he wouldn’t talk about the options with me. It took me quite awhile to make my peace with the situation, and while in the big picture sense, I’ve definitely made peace with it, little parts of me keep saying “Why can’t you just sort it out NOW?” Once I stopped (out loud) freaking out about it, we managed to have several rational discussions, which included him offering a rough timeline of when we might take that step. It was amazing the switch that he made when I began to phrase it the way Meg mentions – calmly, being understanding that he might not have the answers right now, and asking to have a rational, adult discussion about the future. Suddenly there were more concrete ideas coming forward, which really helped settle the “how long is this waiting game going on?” For me, it made a big difference to adjust my thinking a bit too and trying to see more clearly where he was coming from with his feelings on the subject. Because it is a big decision for both of you, and it’s important that you both are at peace with the decision. Asking him to help fill in some of the blanks in my rather open life plan made a big difference. We’re still not there yet, and I don’t know when we will be, but I’m confident that we won’t be waiting forever. It’s really about communicating (like everything else in a partnership, right?)
July 21, 2011 6:10 am
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Oh god, long comment. Sorry!
(Also, right now I’m doing research work in Kenya, and have been told 3 times TODAY that I’m too old to be unmarried. I’m newly 25… Despite what the world seems to think, your twenties (and your thirties!) are still young!)
July 21, 2011 6:12 am
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hahaha I lived in Ivory Coast for 2 1/2 years and I was told the same hahaha (I was 29 at the time)
July 21, 2011 12:23 pm
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I really empathize with you, L–I was in almost exactly this situation two years ago, and I can picture that “long-suffering” look you describe. Meg is spot on that you need to have a serious conversation about your expectations and plans. One thing I would add is to see this stage in your relationship as an opportunity to learn things about yourself, your partner, and your relationship that might be harder to learn otherwise. I wanted to get married earlier than my now-husband did, but once I was able to see his point of view–once we had a serious conversation about our futures–I actually came to agree with him, and decided I didn’t want to get married as soon as I had thought! We had had a number of external complications (with work and school, mostly) in the early years of our relationship, and I wanted time to enjoy him and enjoy us without the stresses of making specific plans for the wedding and the future. When I felt like I was waiting for him to catch up to me and get married already, but I also wasn’t talking to him about it for fear of putting “pressure” on him, it took a toll on our relationship. Once we had an open conversation about our commitment to each other and the need to be honest with each other as we moved towards (maybe) getting married, things got so much better. The experience of being on different pages and needing to talk it through together has really strengthened our relationship.
July 21, 2011 6:12 am
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Ahh, yes, I remember my pre-engaged time of craziness. We were both ready. We had shopped for rings. I was waiting. (I knew he wanted to be the one to propose.)
His mother was getting married, and I went to the wedding with him and his sister. When we got back into town, I had a meltdown. I remember sitting inside the shed he had built in his backyard (so that when I moved in there would be room for me to park in the garage), bawling. I knew we both wanted to get married, and that we would get engaged. But the more time that went by, the more I feared a proposal would never happen.
Shortly after that crying-in-the-shed escapade, tired of feeling like a crazy person, I decided that I would stop worrying about it and trust what I already knew. And I did! And you know what? In just a few weeks, we were engaged.
July 21, 2011 6:18 am
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The timing of this post is almost absurd to me, because as of yesterday afternoon I could have written this question, almost exactly word for word. B and I have been together for 4.5 years, friends for 5.5 before that. We’re both 28 this year. I’ve known for quite a while that I wanted to marry him, and lately — due to a number of complicating factors — the issue has been on the forefront of my mind and stressing me out beyond belief. B and I had had several conversations about marriage. Early on the conversation was that he wanted to finish school first. Now that he had graduated, I was starting to wonder what the holdup was, and worried that maybe he just wasn’t ready, period, and that the graduating school/better job things were excuses rather than reasons. Because there will always be a reason why it’s NOT a good time, and so at some point it’s the right time when you decide it’s the right time, not when you meet some arbitrary criteria.
At any rate, I had reached somewhat of a breaking point yesterday. Part of me was tempted to just go home and propose to B, even though I know that he wanted to be the one to propose. Instead I had a very honest conversation with him about what I needed: a timeline. I felt shrew-like and embarrassed even bringing up the idea, but some part of me knew that this would be the only thing to relieve my stress. To my relief, he gave me one. A very reasonable one. So now, even though I don’t know when the proposal will happen, I do know it will happen, and I know I won’t have to wonder if he’s even planning to do it at all.
I’m so grateful that I have the kind of partner who I was able to bring this up with, time and time again, and have him not freak out or get upset or skittish. This latest conversation was especially wonderful. I think even just having that conversation with him go the way it did confirmed my already certain heart that this person is the person I want to join lives with.
July 21, 2011 6:28 am
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Ditto all of this, except it happened about 5 months ago.
I came to a realization that the more I waited in the wings and the more I hesitated for fear of “pressuring him”, I realized that I was compromising my own happiness and well-being.
I realized that I had to lay it all out there because this nasty dialogue going on in my head was only going on with half of the party, you know? So I went out to the garage, sat on an upside-down bucket and poured my heart out while he worked on one of his cars. It was amazing. I let him know what was important to me re: timeline and other things I needed (emotionally, regarding all of this pre-engaged craziness I was experiencing). And you know what? HE had stuff he wanted to talk about as well, and we really hashed some crap out. The air was cleared and I felt a lot better.
I keep rewriting what I have to say next….. Basically, there was a huge fear of rejection component going on, but I had to put on my big girl chonies and deal with it for the sake of possibly having to move on. Thankfully, we both realized we were on the same page about marriage and timelines (although I’m a little more impatient than him), but I had to open up that line of communication and basically say “Look. I’m ready, can we discuss this because it’s really important to me”. And I knew going into it that it could have gone the opposite direction and while that may have hurt SO badly, at least I would have known and could stop wondering and start moving on.
I think telling your partner your most deep-seeded needs and desires is one of the most exposing and vulnerable things you can do, but it’s also one of the highest forms of intimacy, which lies in the heart of marriage.
July 21, 2011 8:48 am
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Yes to this! It’s scary! But so important.
Right there with you.
July 21, 2011 9:39 am
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Meg,
Thanks so much for stating this so eloquently. I don’t know a girl in her 20′s who HASN’T admitted to feeling like this. It’s wonderful to attribute this common feeling of I’m-going-crazy-waiting-for-you-to-make-up-your-mind to an outdated cultural narrative that forces us to live in an era where we aren’t allowed to make our own decisions (about one of the more important decisions in our lives!) instead of calling every girl who feels like that desperate and whiny. We all know theinjuction “don’t p.r.e.s.s.u.r.e him, he’ll run away and you’ll end up a lonely spinster.”. It’s wonderful to hear a different way to deal with this challenging state.
July 21, 2011 6:29 am
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Yes.
July 21, 2011 9:05 am
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I second that YES. The pressuring thing is what I really struggle with. Also, bringing it up at an appropriate time vs just whenever I feel the most horrible about it (not my finest moments).
July 22, 2011 12:33 am
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I think your comment was most eloquent, too, Christa :)
It has been extraordinarily eye-opening to read this discussion–like glimpsing another country. As a proud and relieved adult child of divorce, I of course had a whole different set of associations/anxieties surrounding the idea of marriage, and what ultimately developed into a sincere desire to marry my partner (and not just in some indeterminate future galaxy far far away). Even writing these sentences, though, I begin to feel it’s unfair to my younger, ambivalent self to relegate that feeling of having-found-my-husband-but-not-wanting-to-marry-him-yet to a mere parenthetical, or suggest that it didn’t deserve the label of ‘sincerity’: it was a real, powerful feeling that helped make our relationship a home. And when I was finally ready to propose–an arrangement that worked for us because, well, see above–was I ever ready!
I’m so grateful for these incisive and heartfelt reflections from APW as I prepare for my wedding in less than 2 weeks.
July 24, 2011 7:39 pm
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L, a tear ran down my face as I read your story, it struck such a deep chord with me. And it was so refreshing to read some real, down-to-earth advice from Meg as well. It IS far more common than anyone thinks/talks about.
I think there’s a general societal pressure on us for someone to be so overwhelmed by love that they can’t help but propose, and this is not always the case. Romantic books and films don’t help this either. I had the numerous conversations with friends whose advice was normally either ‘leave him’ or ‘I bet he’s thinking about it right now’ (he wasn’t). The worst was from my mother – something about cows and free milk!!.
It took me a long time, and what I now realise was a period of depression, to come to terms with it and the lack-of-control, but I have and I’m waiting in a more peaceful way. I sometimes find it difficult though to speak to those, now-married friends who heard all the stories so long ago without getting a pitying look.
July 21, 2011 6:36 am
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Hahaha, when I was talking to my Mom about moving in/pre engagement fears, she used the cows line, too!! Not helpful.
July 25, 2011 5:26 pm
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I want to dive into this post and these comments and just roll around in them like a dog in the dirt, until I’m covered in their support and wisdom and humor (ducks ARE wily, aren’t they??).
Mr. Boyfriend and I are having our six-year dating anniversary on Sunday. To say that I’m antsy about not being married or engaged yet is an understatement; however, I’m working very hard on letting go of that anxiety and frustration and just enjoying the great life we have together–a beautiful house, three amazing dogs and a cat, laughter, good sex, mutual support, and all that other good stuff. He knows I want to get married, and he has said repeatedly that he wants to marry me, but he’s just not ready yet, and no amount of stamping my feet and pitching hissy fits are going to make him any more ready. You know what will? Patience, support, lots of honest discussion, and the reassurance that, married or not, I love him unendingly and he is my person, in that obnoxiously sappy “you complete me” Jerry Maguire way.
In the meantime, I hope it’s OK with you, Team APW, that I lean on you all for support and guidance as I continue to move through this pre-engaged state. Y’all are the wisest women I know!
July 21, 2011 6:37 am
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Awwwwww…. “I want to dive into this post and these comments and just roll around in them like a dog in the dirt, until I’m covered in their support and wisdom and humor (ducks ARE wily, aren’t they??).” Love.
July 21, 2011 9:07 am
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Such great advice, Meg, as always! I wish I had asked this question a year ago when I was feeling the exact same way.
I think guys tell themselves they’re being romantic when they clam up like that. Sure, they have a plan, but letting you in on it would spoil the surprise, right? Wrong! Once I finally got my guy on board with the conversation (which was a couple months after he hit all the milestones he told me he needed to before we started moving closer to marriage), we sat down and talked about it. And talked and talked. And by the end of the week, we had decided to get married. Together. The same way we make all our other decisions.
My biggest fear is that it WOULD ruin the romance. I waited for years for him to be “ready”, and I figured by the time he would be, it would be more like “oh, it’s about time” than “OMG I’m ENGAGED!” But you know what? Really, officially deciding to get married is AWESOME, no matter what leads up to it. I still got the proposal – a month after we had already set our date and booked our venues, and his hands still shook as he pulled out the ring, and I still cried when I realized he was down on one knee asking me to marry him.
So be patient, but talk to him about it. Find out exactly what his hesitations are. Let him know you want to be a part of the decision, too. And then be patient again, because it’s soo worth the wait. :)
July 21, 2011 6:39 am
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Amen to this! Amen to honest conversations, to talking openly about the serious stuff and to making big life decisions together rather than feeling forced to wait “patiently” in the dark for someone else to decide for you and spring it on you like a big “surprise”.
July 21, 2011 7:23 am
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Sigh. I am recently broken up with my partner of 4 years due to wily ducks. His ducks involve trying to make the olympic team ( such a big duck!) and he felt there was no room for other ducks. I just wanted my ducks next to his and got very hurt that he didn’t have room for my ducks. He said it’s not that he didn’t want them, he was just ” sacrificing” for the next year. And damn it, I never agreed to be a sacrifice! So me and my hurt ducks made some hurtful choices since we were unwanted.
Moral of the story, talk! I didn’t know he wanted to be married but felt like he couldn’t. He didn’t know how sad and rejected I felt. Now we both are alone with our ducks. Tell him how you feel, why you feel it, and what you need. Maybe you can at least get your ducks herded into a room, even if they won’t get in line.
Hugs and a bottle of wine to you.
July 21, 2011 6:40 am
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Hugs and a bottle of wine to you.
July 21, 2011 7:11 am
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APW is my bottle of wine with girlfriends for so much of this! It’s a life brigade.
July 21, 2011 7:20 am
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I’ll send you hugs and chocolate ;)
July 21, 2011 12:27 pm
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You guys are amazing. Many hugs your way! <3
July 22, 2011 11:31 pm
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And, you know, sometimes that’s the best lesson of all (and one worth learning now, not later). If our partner doesn’t love our ducks like their own, then, well… it’s going to be one long lifetime (and not in the good way), right?
Hugs and a bottle of wine to YOU.
July 21, 2011 9:09 am
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Oh you women just made me cry. My ducks are worth loving darn it!
July 21, 2011 6:48 pm
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First of all, let me join the throng in sending hugs and booze your way.
Secondly, I have to take a moment and say that, as an owner of six animals currently (and a number of other ones through the years), this whole duck thing has me oversympathezing a little bit because I keep picturing a bunch of sad little ducks hanging out together, looking hopefully toward a significant other and wondering why they’re unwanted. (Incidentally, this is also why I can’t see most animal-related movies. Stupid over-identifying with animals, ha.)
Anyway. Much love to you, Amanda, and kudos for having the strength to take care of your ducks.
July 21, 2011 9:20 am
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Oh, honey. Your bit about just wanting your ducks next to his killed me, and reminded me of this little speech from Gilmore Girls (I know, I know, but this quote got me through the worst break up of my life).
Lorelai: [Explaining to Sookie why she had broken up with Luke for good] It was him not fighting for me. I gave him the ultimatum and he let me walk away. I didn’t want a life separate from Luke, and that’s all he could give me. It’s like Luke is driving a car and I just want to be in the passenger seat. He’s locked the door and I have to hold onto the bumper. I am not even asking him to open the door for me, just leave it unlocked and say come in, but he didn’t do that. So I am hanging on to the bumper and life goes on and the car goes on, and I get really badly bruised and I’m hitting potholes. And it hurts. It really hurts. So yesterday I had to let go of the bumper. Because it hurts too much.
Hugs, and hugs, and lots of wine.
July 21, 2011 9:31 am
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Man I love that show so hard.
July 22, 2011 7:09 pm
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I think we should maybe share a hug and that bottle of wine. Thank you for your story and your sympathy!
July 22, 2011 12:40 am
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Oh my goodness, I am sorry to hear about your breakup. I wish I could reach across the Internet to give YOU a hug and to share that bottle of wine. Thanks for the commiseration and advice. I’m taking both very much to heart.
July 22, 2011 7:36 am
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If you find yourself is the bay area,the first bottle is my treat! Good luck duck wrangling.
July 22, 2011 9:14 am
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I’m sorry your ducks were unwanted. :( It’s a sad story, but I also really love the way you’ve written this.
July 25, 2011 5:32 pm
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I don’t talk about it too much because I worry that from the outside it looks bad, but I essentially bugged my husband about wanting to get married until he got it and said, let’s do it. We were both ready emotionally but he has no married friends and felt confused about how to actually propose and get married. He was ready to get married, but not so sure about the proposing and planning a wedding part, if that makes sense. There’s a lot of weird pressure on men in that area. This time last year I was fretting about wanting to be engaged and now we’re happily married, probably because I kept bugging him. That approach won’t work for everyone, but I’m a doer, not a waiter, and it worked out for us. He’s thanked me for being the one with the balls to move us forward.
July 21, 2011 6:51 am
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When you explain it, it doesn’t sound bad at all. I’m so glad you guys talked through it.
In the weeks before our wedding, Jon started acting extremely nervous about the whole thing. We didn’t talk about it, and I started thinking he didn’t want to get married after all. Not the best mental place to be in while finish preparations, am I right?
The NIGHT BEFORE our wedding I finally lost it and asked him what was going on. Turns out, while he was dead sure he wanted to be married, he was about to lose his shit over the idea of the WEDDING. He was just suddenly nervous about being in front of people.
July 21, 2011 8:48 am
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Talking it through is always the answer, I think.
I should note for the sake of clarity that our resolution was not for him to suddenly propose, like so many of these stories seem to end. We had a great day and I launched into my usual bugging speech (I love you, let’s get married) and he said, “You’re right, let’s get married!” There was a ring and dinner and such later, but that’s what really happened. So to those waiting people I say, sometimes bugging works. Sometimes YOU can be the one who moves things forward if it’s right for you both as a couple. Only you can know that, but don’t play into the cultural standard if you don’t want to.
July 21, 2011 8:55 am
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“Talking it through is always the answer, I think.” For basically, everything, EVER, in my experience…
July 21, 2011 12:19 pm
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Oh duckies. I was in this situation too. Frustrated and angry with all the “It’s gonna happen so just be content to sit on your hands and wait” I finally said, “F*ck that, give me a timeline or I walk.” I got a timeline, I stayed and we’re now planning for next October. Meg’s advice is 110% right.
July 21, 2011 6:51 am
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In some cases I am very pro-ultimatum. We have a dear friend who’s partner was pretty clearly not interested in marriage at all, and she wanted to settle down and have kids. My over-a-beer advice to her (David’s was the same, funny enough), was give him a deadline (it had been nine years at that point, though they were still relatively young). I pointed out that if he couldn’t go through with it in another year, he might never be able to go through with it, and she couldn’t live with that. And sometimes you just have to walk.
That’s a TOTALLY different situation from L’s, obviously. But, I’m just saying that sometimes the gauntlet does need to be thrown down. It’s your life (and fertility) too.
July 21, 2011 9:14 am
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Just saying. I love all of you guys. I wish I could forward these links to everyone in my life and say “See, I’m not crazy!”
July 21, 2011 7:07 am
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DO IT! I have been doing just that. Momma needs to chill out and obey her gag order on the engagement topic (and stop using the “We don’t know how long your Nana’ll be around…” blackmail (esp as Nana’s healthy)). This one hit the nail on the head, so I’m gonna share the APW wisdom, darnnit.
July 22, 2011 2:14 am
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Ah, I wish this post had been around when I was waiting. Unfortunately, I did not have the introspection and wisdom to realize that what I was feeling wasn’t craziness, but frustration at having control over my future stripped away. I think so many people skip right over that point altogether, leading to the “pressure” stigma. Really, we just want some control over our lives!
I expressed myself in several not-so-great ways, but thankfully my boyfriend (now husband) was patient – for the most part. There came a time when he said, “Do you want me to propose because I want to, or to get you to back off?” And there came a time when I said, “If you want to pursue jobs in another state, I need to be married before I move away from my home. And I want to get married here at home – during this time of year. And I will need at least 6 months to plan something. Do the math and decide what you want.” Shortly after that, he gave me the go-ahead for some official planning & proposed right around that 6 months out mark. Later, I found out that he wanted to get *married*, but didn’t feel ready for the madness of a *wedding*.
So, Meg’s advice is great, as always. Talk, talk, think, talk. If we had a better grasp of our true feelings and were able to tell them to each other, I think the whole waiting period would have been a much happier time for both of us.
July 21, 2011 7:17 am
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Yes, the concept of a “Wedding” was scary to my now-husband, even though he was committed already to spending our lives together.
July 21, 2011 9:09 am
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My fiance waited a YEAR after buying the ring to propose. I could just kill him thinking about it! ;) It is funny now (only because the ring is on my freaking finger!) but I remember how painful and confusing it was. For both of us; me feeling hurt and him feeling shame. Meg, this post (and all the comments) will mean so much to so many relationships.
July 21, 2011 7:18 am
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L- I hope you feel better reading these comments, & know that you are far from alone.
As tough as it may be, Meg has a good point; you need to have an honest conversation with your loved one. It will help. I’m so sad to read and know that this conversation is associated with embarrassment and shame for most ladies. I, too, speak with my boyfriend about getting married and we agree that we are going to spend the rest of our lives together. For him that’s enough, for me…. nooooot so much. So recently I had THE conversation with him. I waited till I was calm and (semi-) level headed and told him,
listen I need to talk to you about getting engaged and I need you to listen and then share your thoughts with me and I need the conversation to not include the word pressure. Because I am 50% of this relationship and it’s not fair that I should sit and wait and wonder what the future holds, while you get to plan it. I know we will be together forever, but I also need to know that that is a concrete thing that will materialize one day and not just a nice thought we have.
And he was very receptive and explained the reasons he needed a bit more time- (money & stability seem to be a common theme for men here, and fair enough) and we talked about a rough time line. I felt much, much better after. And while I still have the occasional freak out- when I see friends getting pregnant and or my mail box is full of various shower invites- I try & remember it will happen for me & I know now I can speak to my boyfriend about it. He has been very supportive and has kindly omitted the word pressure from his vocabulary.
I hope you make your peace with this L! Much love….
July 21, 2011 7:26 am
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Anna, Thank you so much for sharing your conversation starter here. It’s exactly what this pre-engaged mess needs. :)
L, I am right there with ya girl. Also in the anxiety/depression boat, this huge worry kills me daily – what a combination!
Think I’ll take some time over the next few days to gather up all my ducks, have an honest talk about courage and confidence with them, print out Anna’s paragraph from above, and git ‘r done. Wish me luck!
July 21, 2011 10:16 am
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ducks or no, he isn’t ready. that doesn’t mean anything about his amount of love for you or his desire to marry you. but he’s not ready. and that’s something to which i can entirely relate. i knew i wanted to marry my husband, but i just… it wasn’t time.
when it’s time, the ducks won’t matter to him any more. but perhaps you need to let him know that they don’t matter to you. that you’d like to be partners in getting them to line up, rather than waiting around for them to do so of their own accord.
July 21, 2011 7:26 am
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Wise words, right here.
July 21, 2011 9:16 am
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Thank you Liz. Wise words, indeed.
July 22, 2011 7:41 am
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I think there is a difference between wanting to marrying this particular man and just wanting to get married. If it is this specific man you want to marry why not wait for him to be ready? If you just want to be married, don’t wait. I agree with Meg’s sound advice about the talking to. I hate surprise engagements, the woman should be an equal part in the decision.
Grabbing those wiley Ducks
-Andee
July 21, 2011 7:35 am
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i don’t knowww.
i don’t think i’m on board with the idea of wanting to get married for the sake of being married.
July 21, 2011 8:16 am
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Yeah… I was trying to figure out why the idea of “wanting to get married for the sake of being married” was rubbing me the wrong way. I guess it’s because it seems to remind me of the “woman who just wants to get married, trying to catch a man, doesn’t she look a little hysterical to you?” train of thought.
On the other hand, I can think of a lot of thoughtful women who value partnership and want a committed, loving relationship to be a part of their long-term life. And I don’t think women should need to be ashamed of wanting that, along with a lot of things that we want in our life and take steps to make possible.
July 21, 2011 8:44 am
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I don’t like the idea of just wanting to BE married (as opposed to wanting to marry a specific person) either. I am definitely not interested in just finding the first available man who is willing to marry me. I want to be with my boyfriend for the rest of my life because I love and respect him. I think my insecurity has more to do with wondering if HE wants the same thing and about how long I can continue in a relationship without a real commitment. I just want the promise, and I want it in writing darn it!
July 22, 2011 7:47 am
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A couple things…
I’m almost 36, married, and (fairly) financially stable – and I’d still say there are a couple wily ducks that simply are recalcitrant about getting in a row. I’m not sure it ever really happens.
Second, I think some of the pre-engaged need to communicate how much distress the limbo is causing them. This is not “crazy,” this is just talking about one of the more important things in your life. I was more of the foot-dragger in my 4-yr pre-enagaged relationship, and was somewhat surprised when my then-boyfriend told me how insecure the waiting made him feel. It might sound dense, but if you don’t personally have the strong urge to get hitched, the emotional aspect of waiting doesn’t really sink in.
Finally, I have several (female) friends (perhaps almost half) who basically told their long-term partners at some point in fairly strong terms what their expectations were in terms of marriage and timing. I wouldn’t say they were ultimatums, but they sounded like pretty cut-and-dry conversations! They are all happily married now to those partners. I think the cultural narrative that girls shouldn’t prrrrrrrrressure boys into marriage!! needs to be challenged a bit. Yes, if someone’s not ready, they’re not ready, but compromise is meeting somewhere in the middle. No one should get to hold “all the cards” in a relationship.
July 21, 2011 7:39 am
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A) Stupid recalcitrant ducks.
B) Yes. Sometimes ultimatums need to happen. Sometimes they are nothing more than a nice warning, “I’m going to be leaving you in a year if we’re not engaged, because this is not what I want from my life. You don’t have to marry me, but you do need to know I’m not going to wait forever.” I’m not sure that’s what’s needed here, but sometimes it is needed. Because you’re dead right. No one holds all the cards (and if they did, it wouldn’t be a good relationship anyway.)
July 21, 2011 9:19 am
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What do you do, though, when you can’t see yourself leaving him over it? Where the choice appears to be between leaving the person who lives inside your heart, or living with the sadness of knowing he is not ready or able to give you what you want yet (but may someday be able to)?
I do agree that sometimes ultimatums are necessary, but they mean nothing if they’re empty threats. I felt stuck in that respect until yesterday when I asked for a timeline and my boyfriend gave me one. Thankfully he IS ready but still wants it all to be a surprise and romantic gesture and all of that, but what if he hadn’t have been ready? He wasn’t for a long time. I don’t know how one lives with that idea, that they may have given up a perfectly good relationship because they were so anxious that they forced a timeline. Logically it’s easy to say that both people’s desires matter, but emotionally it’s tough to swallow in situations like these.
July 21, 2011 10:54 am
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That’s true in so many situations. What do you do when your plans for the future don’t line up with the plans of the person you want to spend your future with? What if you’ve wanted to live in Kenya your whole life and your partner can’t imagine living more than 20 miles from his family in Detroit? What if one of you wants five kids and the other has a demanding career that keeps them away from home a lot?
I think you end up with a lot of heartbreak whatever you choose, unfortunately. But I think you do have to come to a point where you see it as YOUR choice, not something they’re making you do. If you stay with someone but keep feeling like they’re holding you back from other things you want, that’s just going to fester.
July 21, 2011 1:51 pm
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i cringe as i type this because it’s going to sound judgy and i don’t know how to make it sound un-judgy (because i don’t judge you for saying this, i think it’s a common sentiment and a true struggle)
i think then it’s a question of who do you need to care for more. the answer to that is “you.” you are not caring for yourself if you saddle yourself with someone who refuses to offer you commitment (if only commitment to a timeline).
you are WORTH commitment. and commitment should be mutual. by sticking by someone who refuses to respect you enough to offer you a gameplan for the next several years of your life, you disrespect yourself.
and i 100% say this as the non-committal branch of the relationship. my husband is 5 years older than me and was ready to get married. and because i knew he was anxious to do the deed, and i knew i wasn’t, i respected him enough to set a timeline. “when i finish my master’s.” setting yourself that timeline doesn’t lock you into a choice for which you aren’t ready, but it does help you come to terms with whether you’re ready or not. as we got closer to graduation, i was able to say, “yes. YES. marriage to this man IS a good idea.” sometimes we just need that kick in the pants to force ourselves to work it out.
regardless, how awesome that you have your timeline and this is no longer a question for you!!
July 21, 2011 7:08 pm
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My husband did that–setting a timeline for setting the timeline. When I was first asking him, he just wasn’t ready to talk about it, but was able to say he WOULD be ready to talk about it at a given date. It was very helpful.
July 21, 2011 7:48 pm
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My personal experience tells me to choose the option that takes me into the unknown and gives me the possibility of getting what I want and need from life. Because I CAN make things happen for myself, but I CAN’T make anyone else change. And it took me ten years to learn that.
August 4, 2011 11:40 am
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My boyfriend and I always joke that we are going to get married a later then I would like and a earlier then he would prefer all in the name of compromise.
July 21, 2011 9:57 am
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“No one should get to hold “all the cards” in a relationship.”
Yes x100000
And I do believe “recalcitrant” is my new favorite bit of vocab. Thanks for that!
July 21, 2011 12:25 pm
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28 is young!
I just want to give you both a virtual hug.
July 21, 2011 7:41 am
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i want to throw my arms open and give all of you a hug, a high five, and one million exactlys.
and l, good luck with establishing a timeline that the two of you are happy living with. the long-suffering face of your beloved is always a heartbreaker, but the long-suffering feeling that it sounds like you’re carrying around full-time also needs to be addressed.
July 21, 2011 7:41 am
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This is almost like Ask Team Practical Friday, and I’m taking the day off tomorrow, so yesssssssssssssssssssss for advice-givin’ Thursdays!!!
Like so many of y’all who have commented already, I have BEEN THERE. Except, I was kind of on the other side of it. My fiance and I had agreed to be married, oh, within a few weeks of meeting each other. So we weren’t really ever pre-engaged, I s’pose–we’ve been heading down this road for a long time. I wanted to finish college first, no problem. Done. So I started working… and working… and coming up on our 5-year anniversary I turned into a wannabe-bride-zombie. There were lots of tears, lots of screaming, pouty faces. I was not the girlfriend I should have been at the time. Like Rachelle’s dude, “He was ready to get married, but not so sure about the proposing and planning a wedding part, if that makes sense.” Ohh good gawd yes. I knew he loved me enough to marry me, and wanted to so badly, but the proposing crap threw us both off. He didn’t have a lot of money, and he royally sucks at surprises of any kind. Drama disaster. So we went to San Francisco for vacation, he proposed in front of a bar, we fought about the ring (ahem, lack thereof) and got giddy as hell when we met a Real Life Valley Girl in town on business and I said, “Oh, this is my fiance.” So casual, so cool, and I was freaking out like a little schoolgirl on the inside. So was he, because we re-hashed it all later. So we came back to Kansas, had a ring made, and you know what? I paid for the little f*cker. Yep. I’m the breadwinner for our little baby family, and it just. does. not. bother. me. My point is, your proposal, wedding, and marriage doesn’t have to model the ones you see on the kn*t, Martha, or even here! Most importantly, you have to share. With your fiance. Put on your big girl pants and have those talks you might not want to have. (Mine were usually in bed, with my head ducked under the covers, starting out, “Okay. We have to talk about getting married. I’m sorry. I have to do this.” It embarrassed the crap out of me, and this is the guy that I share a home (and an open-door bathrooom policy. Sorry, TMI?) with. It’s so scary, but it shouldn’t be.
Another thing, a question that I asked myself a lot during our pre-engaged state was, “If we NEVER got married, would I stay?” I would have. I still would. That’s lurve.
July 21, 2011 8:05 am
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I am also in the “if we never get married, would I stay?” camp–with a wholehearted yes. Obviously I’m happy and relieved that the fella sees marriage in our future, but like I said above, he’s my person and I would stay with him regardless. :)
July 21, 2011 9:31 am
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Yay Fridays off! I’ll also be reading ATP from my couch tomorrow! Have a good weekend.
July 21, 2011 9:53 am
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Awesome! Me too, and you too. :)
July 21, 2011 9:56 am
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KatiePrue, have you written an undergrad post? I’d love to hear more of your story!
July 21, 2011 12:12 pm
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You know, I should! My fiance and I have been through some sh*t–individually, together, and with our families. Nothing extraordinary, but five years gives you some stories.
July 21, 2011 12:17 pm
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I’m definitely on the “would I stay?” team – not because I’m a pushover and would give up my desire of marriage because the Boy didn’t want to, but because the life we’ve created and the family we have together is already a strong (and ever-strengthening) commitment to one another. If it weren’t for immigration/adoption related matters, I think I could quite happily be committed but not married to the Boy indefinitely, because for me, the relationship in and of itself is pretty worth hanging around for. As long as I still got to throw a little party to celebrate the love once or twice ;)
July 21, 2011 12:32 pm
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We had the “if one never wanted marriage, would the other stay” conversation after getting engaged. And it rattled me. Because I wouldn’t have. (APW book club brought it up, actually)
Here’s why: marriage is important to me, and always has been. And it’s a symbol for other values in our lives- specifically the need to maintain family of origin relationships. Living together forever unwed would bring vastly different treatment on us from my family, of which I would bear the brunt. And if my partner could not empathize or at least sympathize with the distress this would cause me, then our relationship would be unbalanced in a way I could not live with. Not because I don’t love him, but because I’ve got to take care of my emotional wellbeing, and do what is authentic to my values.
Likewise, if he was to experience some grave distress in proportion to mine over being married, (marriage PTSD a la Dr Cox and Jordan?) then we’d have a different conversation. But it would have to be a compelling reason to get me to commit in those circumstances.
July 21, 2011 12:47 pm
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Ah, I love it when “pre-engagement” themed posts crop up. They make my pre-engaged self feel welcomed to this site, which I feel is helping me prepare for what marriage is really like as much as it is giving me ideas for wedding photographers and whatnot.
To L. — I feel for both you and your boyf. Like you, I am anxious to marry a guy I totally love. But like your dude, I also want us to be a little more together, as in not struggling to pay our rent each month, before we get engaged. He is more gung-ho about it than I am, I think — he mentioned something about proposing this fall at one point and I told him it would be too soon for me. And one thing that may be a factor here is additional pressure from society that as a Man he must Provide for you. Obviously old-fashioned and probably not true for many of the women on this site. But he may feel self-conscious about facing the public scrutiny a wedding brings. I get the sense that that’s what the ducks are about, at least in part. Because a wedding IS taking your private relationship and making it a publicly declared matter.
So I think the more you make it known that you don’t care what anyone else says or thinks about the state of his ducks, the better. But other than that, yeah, it’s just a matter of both being ready (and like Meg says you get to ask about all the whens and whys of that).
July 21, 2011 8:09 am
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I am not going to weigh in much here due to inexperience with the pre-engaged state. However, I agree that both the question and Meg’s response are brilliantly written! And I’m pretty sure that “ducks are wily” and “yours in duckies” have now entered the APW lexicon for good. :)
July 21, 2011 8:25 am
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Here’s hoping!
July 21, 2011 9:57 am
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Thank you, Meg, for taking on such a common and serious question with wisdom, eloquence and sensitivity. Thanks for blasting away the shame so often heaped upon women who dare to initiate the marriage conversation. There seems to be this ludicrous idea that either you are a good girlfriend waiting patiently (and silently) for him to propose on his own timeline, or else you are the desperate girlfriend nagging and pressuring your man for a ring. Thank you for bypassing that false dichotomy and reminding us that there are other options in between. Thank you for saying out loud that women have a right to be involved in the decisions that shape our lives and that big, life-changing decisions get made as a team. Yay for that!
No, we don’t get to force our timeline on our partner and pressuring someone into a marriage that s/he isn’t ready for isn’t likely to end well. But, it is okay to insist on an honest conversation between partners. You don’t have to stand by passively while someone else makes the important life decisions according to some mysterious and secretive one-sided plan. It’s your life too and you do get to be involved in planning it.
And also, “ducks are wily” = awesome!
July 21, 2011 8:33 am
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Thanks Claire =)
July 25, 2011 6:41 pm
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I think the timeline is such an important conversation anyway, regardless of the feeling antsy to “make it official”. Remember the Friends episode when Rachel turns 30 and her timeline? But a timeline helps you define life goals. When we decided we wanted to get married, I thought he would propose in the next couple of month. He thought it would be in the next 4 years or so, after school was done and a job secured for him. I meanwhile had been in my career for 10 years and am 31. I want a few kids and I wanted to be a younger parent. I also know fertility issues come up the longer you wait. Women think about those things more than most guys I think, and while we are made fun of or told to ignore biological clock (or look desperate) it is a reality and needed to be acknowledged. We also discussed our career goals and balancing a family and what is realistic both financially and emotionally. From there we were able to back into a timeline for engagement. We got engaged 3 month later, and decided on a 1 1/2 yr engagement. I needed the engagement as a sign of the commitment, but was fine with being engaged for a little bit longer. But we got there by talking to death about everything.
PS 28 was the worst year for me personally as far as feeling antsy about the future because everyone has an idea where they will be by 30 and at 28 you think you have enough time to make those goals happen. Don’t let that be the reason for the pressure. You never want to tell your kids when they ask “why did you marry daddy?” answer “because I was getting old” :)
July 21, 2011 8:33 am
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There seems to be a cultural trend that’s been going on a long time that downplays the biological clock. But more doctors are now saying the decline in fertility happens a lot sooner than they used to think.
Just because some women are able to get pregnant in their forties doesn’t mean it applies to everyone.
The biological clock is NOT a good reason to get married to just anybody, but it’s one of many good reasons to find out where your relationship is going. No one has the right to expect you to ignore biology. ;)
July 21, 2011 10:12 am
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Good luck with your ducks!!
I think all the advice here is wise indeed. I’d just like to throw this little tidbit into the mix as well.
Financial security is fickle.
My partner and I got engaged when we *were* financially secure. We planned the wedding, put down all the deposits…and then he lost his job. (Fuck this economy.) We are no longer as financially secure as we would like to be but we’re going ahead with the wedding anyway. Our budgeting timeline included some cushion, but not knowing when we’ll have a dual income again does take it’s toll.
Financial security is also relative. When we were both working even, I would not have called us particularly financially secure because we were not making/saving as much as we would both prefer to plan for our futures. Now, just being able to live somewhere other than the brink sounds “secure”.
So, I guess what I’m saying is, if “financial security” is really all your bf is waiting for…you guys need to have a talk about what that really means. Define it. Make sure you’re not in the dark about his plans. And know that this kind of security is not a benchmark you’ll hit and then everything’s rosy. Have a plan (made by both of you) for that too.
Hang in there.
July 21, 2011 8:38 am
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Yes to everything.
July 21, 2011 10:16 am
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Yes! It works the other way, too. David proposed when he was unemployed and his industry was a gutted disaster. By the time the wedding rolled around, 6 months later, he was working and money was good. (It didn’t particularly change our fairly barebones wedding budget, but that’s because of our financial priorities. Which esteemed Paris and a leather couch over decorations. But that’s us.) Point is, you never know for sure where you’re going to be in a year, financially or otherwise. Best laid plans, and all that…
July 21, 2011 12:32 pm
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Oh Meg, this is such a lovely post! The duck metaphor you guys have going on… made me smile this morning!
I have to admit, I had never heard the term “pre-engaged” until I started reading this blog. It’s still a term I am not comfortable using (it just sounds “funny” to me), I do realize looking back that I had a “pre-engaged” period. We got to this point where we were starting to talk about commitment in a more serious way, and the idea of marriage came up here and there. It was actually me who was the one dragging my feet on the commitment thing. I wanted a bunch of ducks in a row too…
Eventually, I realized that I was doing that thing that Meg was talking about in her response – I was seeing marriage as being an end rather than a process. We don’t need all of our ducks in a row in order to get married. But we do need to be emotionally ready to get married, and I think that process probably looks a little different for everyone.
And since we’re talking about engagements, I’m just going to throw in some encouragement for any women out there thinking of proposing to their guys! I proposed to my sweetie, and it was awesome! He loved it, and it was great for me to feel what it felt like to be the “asker.” So, if you feel like it would work for your relationship, I say go ahead and propose!
July 21, 2011 8:47 am
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I proposed to my guy, and so did a friend of mine! (to her guy, that is) My friend’s story is even better than mine — she had a loose diamond from her family, and she didn’t want her now-husband to have the pressure of doing the setting. So she bought herself a modest engagement ring that she liked and gave it to him when they were out hiking. So, she proposed to him . . . by giving him a ring to put on her finger :-)
I meant to plan something but didn’t get around to it in the craziness of my life. But we too were out hiking (in the snow, after volunteering at a winter event at our local nature center), and I just knew it was the time and he was my person. So I said “hey, want to get married?” And he says “sure.” And then I say “no, like, soon. As in, let’s set a date?” And, again, he said “uh, sure.” It took him about a month to come around and actually tell people about it, so I gave him some breathing room.
And to the OP, my boyfriend (erm, half husband — we eloped on Monday but are still having our big ceremony in December) is a pretty traditional guy. He mentioned more than once that he wanted to be the one who proposed. But he never got around to it, and I was ready. It took him a little bit to be ready once I proposed, but he got there. The funniest part is this — he said he didn’t propose because he thought I’d say no. I’m not sure where he got that out of us talking frequently about marriage, but there it is. We sure could have benefited from more open conversation, and we’re taking that lesson forward into our married life.
July 21, 2011 9:02 am
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Congrats on your elopement and best wishes for your wedding!
July 21, 2011 9:32 am
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I did propose to my guy, then he said no. Fantastic!
We are still together, but my goodnesss can I now relate to the freakouts I have watched my male friends have over the whole proposal thing, it is scary, really freaking scary to just open yourself up like that and ask.
August 6, 2011 3:12 am
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Love it! So wise.
July 21, 2011 8:56 am
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While reading this post I kept thinking, “I could have written this almost exactly word for word a year ago. I have so much to say on the topic!” and then I started reading the comments and realized that I am in a community of so many other women who were/are in the exact same boat and having the exact same “take control of planning my own life-vs-don’t want to be the nagging pressuring girl” problems. I want to *exactly every single comment! Guess it just more proof that I have found the right group of awesome, independent, intelligent, like-minded women :)
July 21, 2011 9:01 am
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As a pre-engaged lady myself, waiting (im)patiently for my traditional guy to dictate our next step (he tells me there’s a plan…), this post was JUST what I needed today to talk me down from my daily WHENISITGOINGTOHAPPEN crazy ledge. Thanks, APW! And L, you’re so not alone. We can commiserate across the interweb.
July 21, 2011 9:12 am
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L, I have so been there, and lamented my own pre-engaged purgatory in the comments of the post Meg mentioned. (My guy has since proposed!)
As Meg and all of the other women here have said, talk it out. I let things boil up until I truly couldn’t take it anymore. I told my guy that I wanted to have a serious talk about our future and that the following topics would be on the table for discussion: engagement, marriage, children, returning to school for graduate degrees, and careers. I told him that I wanted to schedule the conversation in a week, to give us both time to think about these topics, how we felt about them, what we wanted to say about them. Having that week to prepare for The Talk really made things easier on both of us. No one was caught off guard, we both knew what topics we were going to discuss, and we both had a little time to really meditate on those topics and figure out how we really felt about them.
The conversation was hard. It was at times embarassing, at times sad, and frustrating, and–yes–funny. We both felt better afterward, though, and so much closer. One of the things that really opened up for the two of us during that discussion was the difference between “Marriage” and “Wedding.” My guy kept saying that he didn’t want to be married, he didn’t want to be married, he didn’t want to throw away thousands of dollars on flowers and cake. And I would cut him off and say, “No. You are talking about a wedding. A wedding is a party that you throw on/around/in celebration of the start of your marriage. I am talking about MARRIAGE. As in our life-long commitment to each other, growing and nurturing our relationship.” I could actually see the comprehension dawning in his eyes. It was six months after that conversation that he felt “ready.” Right around the time that I was feeling the crazy start to boil up again. He proposed before I reached my boiling point, but I was already planning to open up the floor for another Future Talk. And even though this milestone is underway, there will be tons of things to decide on and discuss in our future together. I’m so happy knowing that we can approach these big conversation freely. It’s so liberating! (Now that we’re planning a wedding, of course, some of his panic has returned, but at least we both know that it’s the MARRIAGE that counts. Not the wedding!)
July 21, 2011 9:21 am
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I never thought about having to make that distinction between a wedding and a marriage. Thanks for the tip, maybe that will help my bf think about things a little differently.
July 25, 2011 6:43 pm
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The boy and i have only been together for a year and he just moved in with me last week, so i’m definitely not at the same stage as L. This is one of those APW posts that I’m going to file away in the “just in case” file. We’ve talked very casually about getting married (the other day, he told me I could borrow his Costco card and tell them that it belongs to my “maybe future husband” lol). I know he’s not ready yet, so I’m staying calm and patient.
I am getting tempted to send “Dos & Don’ts for Friends of the Pre-engaged” to various friends and family though. I’ve had 2 siblings meet and marry their spouses within 1 year, and another within 2 years, so everyone likes to pressure me and my other brother about when it’s going to be our turn (particularly since I am the oldest). It doesn’t help that the boy’s brother just got married also and he has 2 cousins getting married next month.
Anyway, good luck to you L, and thanks Meg for the great advice!
July 21, 2011 9:37 am
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Right after I posted this comment, I opened a fortune cookie and read “Good news of long-awaited event will arrive soon.” Ha!
July 21, 2011 11:17 am
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To all you pre-engaged ladies here on APW: I was in your shoes like just a week or so ago. And I was crazy, I know why I was crazy but also don’t know why I was crazy, you know what I mean?
I just want to give you all a hug. Individually. I want to sit and listen to why your particular situation is so hard, because it is. All my best wishes (and I’d be willing to bet that if you’re on APW you’ve got a solid relationship foundation and chances are your guy will eventually come around).
July 21, 2011 9:37 am
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Thanks for this post. The pre-engaged state is psychologically difficult sometimes, especially when the message to empowered women is some form of “if he really loved you, he’d propose,” with the hidden threat being that your pretty years are slipping away and that if a man isn’t proposing once you realize *you’re* ready, then he’s just not going to do it and you might as well cut and run.
I have no doubt that some men don’t propose because they’re never going to, but I don’t think this is true for the majority of men in a majority of healthy, 3+ year-long relationships. The sticky thing about marriage is that there’s necessarily going to be one person in the relationship who is ready to take the plunge first. It shouldn’t be an automatic demerit against the other partner if s/he needs more time to get to that point.
July 21, 2011 9:46 am
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OMG, this was literally me and my dilemma all last year up till this last March when his “plan” was finally initiated. This post is amazing because it was exactly what I was looking for back then, and will now help countless others who will ultimately feel this way. In fact, I scoured this site for any shred of info/stories about the waiting game while being pre-engaged. For me/us, I learned that is was really the communication that was lacking and the feeling of being in the dark. It’s so hard when you know you’re on the same path but you’re just further up the path than your partner. “Hurry Up!!!” is the thought there. But as Meg stated, those Ducks are wiley, and so was my balancing act of communicating and waiting. I got pretty salty there for awhile, which I now regret… if I had just calmly and rationally stated my case from the beginning I probably would’ve been less in the dark and received less murky and cryptic statements of “don’t worry it will happen.”
And i agree with Kelly above, that after we finally did have the logical, rational, and sometimes hard-funny-sad-embarrassing-goofy talk, we both felt better and so much more connected. I felt like we were a true team in it, rather than the “girl” waiting for her “man” to make this grand gesture.
On a side note: I’m 36 and can say from experience that yes, you should NOT worry about your age, or what stage your friends are at in their lives. Enjoy where YOU are right now, and the love that you have and the experiences that you have. A few of my friends are on their second marriages right now because they felt 30 was some sort of end to a musical chairs game of mates.
July 21, 2011 10:06 am
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L – I don’t have a whole lot to say on the pre-engaged subject, but I will say this: when you discuss this with him, emphasize that your job/financial situations shouldn’t be the deciding factor in getting engaged. My fiance and I got engaged last summer — I still had one semester of school left, followed by job-searching, and he got laid off from his job one week after we got engaged. But we were engaged anyway, with the complete understanding that we wouldn’t get married until we were financially stable, and until at least one of us found a good job. There’s a big difference between waiting for financial stability to get engaged, and waiting for financial stability to get married. We were fine with a long engagement — it’s given us plenty of time to both find great jobs (yay) and save for the wedding. Being engaged just means you’ve both decided that, heck yes, we’re totally gonna commit to each other for life, and whenever we get around to having the actual wedding, it’ll be awesome! You don’t need piles of money or an awesome career to be engaged. That’s my take, anyway. :) (And I know your situation is a little more complicated than just money.)
July 21, 2011 10:21 am
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I’m there too — and I totally want a “Ducks are Wiley” shirt.
July 21, 2011 10:31 am
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I’m heading to Cafe Press after this!
July 22, 2011 12:41 am
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